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Thread: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Yes, they became involved certainly, but that does not make it a Russian issue.
    If most of Russia's gas flows through pipes in Ukraine...how is that not a Russian issue?

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I certainly agree with your analysis. In everyone's interest, including that of the Ukrainian people, Russia should have the Crimea, their freshwater port, and stop right there. It need go no further. NATO and all the rest can wait indefinitely.
    Absolutely. That's where the line should be drawn.

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Well it was just a Ukrainian issue until Russia invaded, then they became involved as well.
    It was a Ukraine issue until the USA/CIA spent $5 billion to foment anarchy and destabilization. There hand picked stooge is in charge, and nobody , except Yanukovych was actually elected. Face facts. It's a US backed plot to force privatization of the Energy bottleneck industries in Ukraine. This is not and never has been a spontaneous reveolt for freedom, liberty, democracy or justice. It is an economic power grab and it will also boost the MIC players in the USA at a time tehy are fearing budget cuts.. It's a USA win-win for business. War is good business. Threats of war are good business. What's good for business is good for the USA, especially anything in the energy or arms businesses. Wars are good marketing , if you're in the business, and we are.

  4. #54
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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    It was a Ukraine issue until the USA/CIA spent $5 billion to foment anarchy and destabilization. There hand picked stooge is in charge, and nobody , except Yanukovych was actually elected. Face facts. It's a US backed plot to force privatization of the Energy bottleneck industries in Ukraine. This is not and never has been a spontaneous reveolt for freedom, liberty, democracy or justice. It is an economic power grab and it will also boost the MIC players in the USA at a time tehy are fearing budget cuts.. It's a USA win-win for business. War is good business. Threats of war are good business. What's good for business is good for the USA, especially anything in the energy or arms businesses. Wars are good marketing , if you're in the business, and we are.
    It's kind of an odd choice for an evil empire to decide to back another coup whilst cutting defense spending, is it not?
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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    It's kind of an odd choice for an evil empire to decide to back another coup whilst cutting defense spending, is it not?
    That would depend on who's hand is in the sock puppet. CORPORATE hand and very oily.

  6. #56
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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallenangel View Post
    Party of regions and Batykovshina are the largest parties "on paper" and Wiki, because they were elected before the recent Maidan revolution - in very murky elections, these elections would have very little to do with the current aspirations of Ukrainians in the streets, and the actual situation on the ground in Ukraine.
    I agree. However, the fact that these politicians impeached Yanukovych demonstrates the fact that his ouster was not a neo-Nazi coup.
    Moreover, the "political affiliation" of some party members is just a formality, as could have been seen from the Party of regions vote to impeach Yanukovich, and from;
    segodnya.ua (sorry it's in Russian)
    "Party of Regions deputies out of 75 (updated) - 4.3.14
    Today, pro-government faction left 2 more MPs
    Of the parliamentary faction of the Party of Regions went 2 more MPs. In general, the faction lost and 75 people's deputies.
    Resignation from the faction wrote:
    Sergei Klyuyev
    Vladimir Nakonechniy
    Vladimir Demishkan..."


    Ukrainian political life is much more complicated than the simple division according to party/political lines i.e liberal vs. conservative - and a large portion of PMs are sitting in the Rada not because of their strong political stance, but due to a simple desire to be close to the power and money.
    That's how it is in the US, too, except we only have two parties.

    If I had to guess, the decision of Yanukovych's own party to back his impeachment stems more from politicking than ideology. He's extremely dangerous to keep from a political standpoint, considering how much Ukrainians hate him.
    It accounted for 8% in the parliament based on the previous electons, unfortunately like I already explained these elections have nothing to do with the situation that we have now. Svoboda's Tyagnibok is one of the main 2 winners of the revolution, together with Yatzenuk, (2 and not 3 as I don't consider Klichko as someone that has future in Ukraine's political life).

    The main problem with that is that Svoboda, and the extreme groups like Pravy sektor gained more power, they gained more recognition, and the worst part is that they managed to get into the mainstream narrative in Ukraine and around the world.
    That is very obvious if one watches the Ukrainian media, for example, nationalists and Nazis are portrayed as "heroes" on the pro-European "liberal" media outlets such as espreso.tv.
    Furthermore, these groups are better organised, equipped and armed and can be easily manipulated to obey orders by their leaders.

    These nationalist and Nazi parties played a crucial role in the recent "revolution" as the main and well organized fighting force on the ground, and they are not going to just disappear.

    Fallen.
    Oh, I'm not denying the fact that these scum have their presence or that they're benefiting from the revolution. I just object to the notion that the entire movement is being directed by their hands. Unfortunately, every revolution has its extremists, and I just hope that the moderates will be able to marginalize their influence and bring Ukraine into the Western world.

    BTW, even when we disagree, you tend to present well-written and thoughtful arguments. Keep it up
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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    It was a Ukraine issue until the USA/CIA spent $5 billion to foment anarchy and destabilization.
    This is just meaningless conjecture, and everything Dave thinks rests upon this.
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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    This is just meaningless conjecture, and everything Dave thinks rests upon this.
    You will kindly produce the links that prove the USA spent the money on other items, like cheap energy for Ukrainians, or lo-cost electricity for Ukrainians, or money for rail links, or money for new communications cabling, or food subsidies. That should be easy for a great soothsayer like yourself who doesn't know that USA National Interests are not supposed to be USA CORPORATE Interests. The people are not CORPORATE AMERIKA.
    Last edited by DaveFagan; 03-15-14 at 09:56 PM.

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    You will kindly produce the links that prove the USA spent the monwy on other items, like cheap energy for Ukrainians, or lo-cost electricity for Ukrainians, or money for rail links, or money for new communications cobling, or food subsidies. That should be easy for a great soothsayer who doesn't know that USA National Interests are not supposed to be USA CORPORATE Interests. The people are not CORPORATE AMERIKA.
    So...again you're assuming.
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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    So...again you're assuming.
    No! The State Department is about 50% CIA to provide cover jobs. The $5 billion did not purchase one tangible asset for the USA or it woud be all over the News. You do not believe in liberty, freedom, democracy or justice but believe in what is effective. $5 billion is pretty effective in a poor Nation like Ukraine. If a regime change would be in USA "National Interest," then by your own standards, regime change is what's going to be because it's effective. Now USA big Banking can force Ukraine to put the National asset, pipeline, up as collaterol for a loan, trigger policies that encourage default and "Voila," unbelievable coincidence, pipeline privatized to Western Bankers and Energy players, better known as CORPORATE AMERIKA. Effective!

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