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Thread: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

  1. #31
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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Perhaps if you had read their history and what the Ukraine nationalist parties really stand for, you might think differently. The Svoboda is little more than a front for extreme right wing neo-nazi fascists...


    Svoboda (political party) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    See the red/black flags and the blue/gold flags and all those nazi uniforms? They are nationalists and are at the heart of every protest and difficult to miss....and now they are the new government.....

    https://www.google.com/search?q=ukra...&start=20&sa=N




    Aside from their goal of ethnic cleansing and Ukrainian purity, the Svoboda want to nationalize Ukraine industries, forbid private ownership of property, forbid imports of foreign products that compete with Ukraine products, and to re-acquire nuclear weapons....I don't see how they expect to join the EU or NATO with a platform like that and I don't see why the US is supporting them. Trading one bad apple for a rotten apple isn't the way to go, imo.
    Svoboda is a Ukrainian nationalist group, you're right on that account; however, it in no way is representative of Ukraine's new government. The party which has led the movement is the pro-EU conservative "Fatherland" party. Both the acting president and the PM are members of this party, and it and Yanukovych's old Party of Regions are the largest two parties in Parliament. Svoboda, on the other hand, only accounts for 8% of MPs.
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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I was looking at something today that said that Germany gets almost 40 percent of its natural gas from Russia. I don't think there is enough leverage there to force the issue with Russia. Any attempt at imposing substantial sanctions could be met with a disruption with those gas supplies. Germany is the engine of the European economy. Any such disruption would likely was devastating effects on the European economy at this crucial time.
    It's always a 'crucial time' because we feel we are at risk now and the past is done with. In fact this is one of the least crucial times in modern history and we have to do what is necessary and right to keep it that way.

    Russia now has the Crimea and will keep it. We can see the recent propaganda coming our way that the rest of the Ukraine is corrupt, dangerous, terrorist, etc. in order to give Russia credibility to enter the rest of the Ukraine.

    Will Europe make sacrifices in their energy needs in order to block the Russian bear? sacrifice hasn't been necessary for western Europeans for the last couple of generations so they hope the problem, and the Ukrainians, will just quietly go away. Putin is banking on this reaction of course.

    But perhaps Europeans have more spine than we give them credit for. Their plan for action should Russian extend further into the Ukraine is where the crucial part lies.

  3. #33
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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    LOL, look at the questions on the referendum:

    BBC News - Is Crimea's referendum legal?

    There are two questions being put to the vote:

    1. Are you in favour of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea reuniting with Russia as a constituent part of the Russian Federation?

    2. Are you in favour of restoring the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea of 1992 and of Crimea's status as part of Ukraine?

    However, the referendum rules do not state whether there is a threshold number of votes needed for the result to be enacted.
    Its an essentially yes vote on Russia either way, you cant vote no, we want to be part of Ukraine in it.

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    It's always a 'crucial time' because we feel we are at risk now and the past is done with. In fact this is one of the least crucial times in modern history and we have to do what is necessary and right to keep it that way.

    Russia now has the Crimea and will keep it. We can see the recent propaganda coming our way that the rest of the Ukraine is corrupt, dangerous, terrorist, etc. in order to give Russia credibility to enter the rest of the Ukraine.

    Will Europe make sacrifices in their energy needs in order to block the Russian bear? sacrifice hasn't been necessary for western Europeans for the last couple of generations so they hope the problem, and the Ukrainians, will just quietly go away. Putin is banking on this reaction of course.

    But perhaps Europeans have more spine than we give them credit for. Their plan for action should Russian extend further into the Ukraine is where the crucial part lies.
    While I feel there is merit to the notion that it's always a crucial time, I don't agree that this is one of the least crucial times in modern history. I think that case could have been made before the protests got too heated in Ukraine, but especially since the Ukrainian government was brought down, I think we are at an extremely crucial time in modern history. I think part of the problem is that we don't tend to look at the problem from the other side of the issue. There has been quite a bit of talk about bringing Ukraine into NATO. That would be a very big problem for Russia. I would mean that the military might of the United States would be right at their doorstep. It would mean that if Ukraine decided to deny them access to their base at Sevastopol, there would be very little they could do about it. For Russia, this would mean a big decline in their power, after already having conceded so many former countries in their sphere of influence to NATO. That's what Russia is looking at. A leader of Russia at this point, cannot ignore this and would have to act strongly to prevent this from happening. That's the problem.

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Does anyone really think this will be a fair vote or that the referendum results havent been decided in advance?
    A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    There was no Nazi government propped up in Ukraine (and certainly not a totalitarian one). The majority of the protestors are pro-EU democrats trying to escape Russia's sphere of influence. Besides, it's not exactly a new strategy on Putin's part to utilize trumped-up ethnic rivalries in order to undermine and bully former Soviet states.
    Yeah, and the Syrian opposition are democrats, too. lmao, dude, you're a hoot.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    As the Russian minister pointed out at the UN yesterday. The present Ukrainian government is illegitimate, having taken its position by force through violence, toppling the elected government and driving the president out, firing upon his caravan as he fled. That's not democracy.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Yeah, and the Syrian opposition are democrats, too. lmao, dude, you're a hoot.
    I just showed how neither the acting heads of state nor the Ukrainian Parliament are dominated by nationalists in any sense of the term.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    I just showed how neither the acting heads of state nor the Ukrainian Parliament are dominated by nationalists in any sense of the term.
    I wasn't taking issue with that part of your point.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    While I feel there is merit to the notion that it's always a crucial time, I don't agree that this is one of the least crucial times in modern history. I think that case could have been made before the protests got too heated in Ukraine, but especially since the Ukrainian government was brought down, I think we are at an extremely crucial time in modern history. I think part of the problem is that we don't tend to look at the problem from the other side of the issue. There has been quite a bit of talk about bringing Ukraine into NATO. That would be a very big problem for Russia. I would mean that the military might of the United States would be right at their doorstep. It would mean that if Ukraine decided to deny them access to their base at Sevastopol, there would be very little they could do about it. For Russia, this would mean a big decline in their power, after already having conceded so many former countries in their sphere of influence to NATO. That's what Russia is looking at. A leader of Russia at this point, cannot ignore this and would have to act strongly to prevent this from happening. That's the problem.
    Here's some history.

    BBC NEWS | Europe | Bush backs Ukraine on Nato bid

    It all depends on how this Crimea situation is handled, and that alone is not 'crucial', though it all depends on western reaction. If the western democracies are strongly united against further advancement by the Russians then the situation can be diffused, though with the loss of the Crimea. Overall that is no big deal.

    As the article form the BBC shows, among others, that the Germans, the French, the US Democrats and certainly the Russians, were against having the Ukraine in NATO. We can understand why but will the Germans and French respond with more vigor against Russia this time? It seems clearly in their own best long term interest to do so.

    This entire situation can be easily handled if the west stays firm for the next couple of weeks and are planning now for their response to what might happen next. Russian should never be allowed to advance further into the Ukraine. If they do then the situation will definitely become crucial. Cheers.

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