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Thread: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

  1. #161
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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Russia never really left Crimea and Crimea never really left Russia. The Black Fleet Navy has been in Crimea since the USSR was in power. The majority of Crimeans are ethnic Russian and born under USSR and have very little in common with Ukraine either culturally or economically.

    au·ton·o·my : the state of existing or acting separately from others : the power or right of a country, group, etc., to govern itself

    Is Crimea an autonomous republic or not? It isn't much of an autonomy if their only choice in the referendum is which of two countries they want to lord over them. Legal or not, they voted to stay with Russia mainly because they don't want to be part of a far right wing nationalist government that hates ethnic speaking Russians.

    The irony is that the pro-Ukraines had a lot of support for independence from russian speaking people...until they tried to ban the russian language and threaten ethnic Russians.
    Ahhhh... an English lesson. Fun. Maybe you should use the entire term, not just one word of the term.

    Crimea was made part of Ukraine by the USSR and subsequently permanently given to Ukraine by Russia later.

    Autonomous region is the term. Not autonomous country. An autonomous region is also the definition of a state within the United States of America.

    Nice try though. The rest of your post has been addressed numerous times. Ethnicity of the population has nothing to do with which country has sovereign power over the region. As we've discussed many times already in this thread, under that illogical precedence, Mexico could claim Southern California or Brownsville, Texas. Or the US could claim some of the Japanese islands since US military personnel (ethnic Americans) outnumber the local population.

    Do you feel that Russia had or has the right to invade and occupy another sovereign nation that has made no acts of war toward Russia, no acts of violence toward Russia, and with whom Russia has a treaty that precludes such military aggression? Can you please answer the question without the continual "YEAH.. BUT..." responses?

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I don't think so. Honestly, I think they're anti-government (US government, of course, they don't care about any others) types. They're sick of "the Man" and "the Establishment" and "Media bias" and "the Illuminati" and whatever else they contrive to explain why they feel they've been put down. So anything that looks like it's sticking its thumb in the eye of all/any/some of those things? They support it. The old "enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing. They see the world in black and white, good and evil: they found out at some point that the US wasn't the good guy they had always been told it was- that it was just looking after its own interests? Then it must be evil. And they fight it tooth and nail. Putin fights it? Then they love Putin.
    This phenomenon among the people we're describing here was recognized a century or more ago (described by JF Revel Jean-François Revel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia in The Totalitarian Temptation ) whereby Nazis could easily become Fascists or Communists and so on. Their main enemy has always been western style democracies and they will assume any argument, no matter how biased, baseless or false, in order to support their own vision of the way they feel society should be run.

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    Ahhhh... an English lesson. Fun. Maybe you should use the entire term, not just one word of the term.

    Crimea was made part of Ukraine by the USSR and subsequently permanently given to Ukraine by Russia later.

    Autonomous region is the term. Not autonomous country. An autonomous region is also the definition of a state within the United States of America.

    Nice try though. The rest of your post has been addressed numerous times. Ethnicity of the population has nothing to do with which country has sovereign power over the region. As we've discussed many times already in this thread, under that illogical precedence, Mexico could claim Southern California or Brownsville, Texas. Or the US could claim some of the Japanese islands since US military personnel (ethnic Americans) outnumber the local population.

    Do you feel that Russia had or has the right to invade and occupy another sovereign nation that has made no acts of war toward Russia, no acts of violence toward Russia, and with whom Russia has a treaty that precludes such military aggression? Can you please answer the question without the continual "YEAH.. BUT..." responses?
    Crimea asked for Russia's help. How many countries invite invaders in and vote to be part of their federation? Yeah but, yourself.

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    Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Crimea asked for Russia's help. How many countries invite invaders in and vote to be part of their federation? Yeah but, yourself.
    The Crimean government that Russia put in place asked for the Russians to help....... After the Russians had already deployed their forces around the Crimea and put their guys in charge. Pretty convenient.
    Everything in your life is a reflection of a choice you have made. If you want a different result, don't blame someone else, or expect others to make a change, you should stop complaining and make a different choice. Remember, the circumstances of your birth don't determine the outcome of your life.

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    How many countries invite invaders in and vote to be part of their federation?
    It's almost like you're not sure of what a "country" is.

    I want to again specify- because you seem to be unable to understand what I'm saying- that I'm not saying Russia is particularly "wrong". I'm very much an IR neorealist. It's all subjective. But the pains some of you are going through to try to make Russia look like a saint in comparison to the evil US is just laughable.
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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I don't think so. Honestly, I think they're anti-government (US government, of course, they don't care about any others) types. They're sick of "the Man" and "the Establishment" and "Media bias" and "the Illuminati" and whatever else they contrive to explain why they feel they've been put down. So anything that looks like it's sticking its thumb in the eye of all/any/some of those things? They support it. The old "enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing. They see the world in black and white, good and evil: they found out at some point that the US wasn't the good guy they had always been told it was- that it was just looking after its own interests? Then it must be evil. And they fight it tooth and nail. Putin fights it? Then they love Putin.
    We're not anti gov't. Unlike you, and you readily admit you don't believe in liberty, freedom, democracy and justice, we place those issues in high regard. We don't desire to be an EMPIRE and control the NEW WORLD ORDER. We don't confuse National Interests with Corporate Interests as you do. CORPORATE AMERIKA is evil and all you have to do is review the banking books to see the USA is the most indebted Nation on the planet and initiating skullduggery WorldWide to prevent collapse. I admire Putin as he has stood by Russians, including the Russians in Crimea and East Ukraine. He has stood against TERRORISTS financed by the USA in Syria. Evil NATIONAL INTERESTS do not earn my loyalties and I am a veteran and a patriotic one, except I seem to be patriotic to forgotten ideals of justice, democracy, human rights, self determination, and other virtues that this Nations represented and seems to have forgotten, especially people in gov't like yourself. Self Interest is your patriotism, nothing else. All I can figure is that you are paid to obfuscate the truth on this board and/or to assuage your own guilt. Hey, have at it. You're slummin' wit' da' bottom feeders.

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    We're not anti gov't. Unlike you, and you readily admit you don't believe in liberty, freedom, democracy and justice, we place those issues in high regard. We don't desire to be an EMPIRE and control the NEW WORLD ORDER. We don't confuse National Interests with Corporate Interests as you do. CORPORATE AMERIKA is evil and all you have to do is review the banking books to see the USA is the most indebted Nation on the planet and initiating skullduggery WorldWide to prevent collapse. I admire Putin as he has stood by Russians, including the Russians in Crimea and East Ukraine. He has stood against TERRORISTS financed by the USA in Syria. Evil NATIONAL INTERESTS do not earn my loyalties and I am a veteran and a patriotic one, except I seem to be patriotic to forgotten ideals of justice, democracy, human rights, self determination, and other virtues that this Nations represented and seems to have forgotten, especially people in gov't like yourself. Self Interest is your patriotism, nothing else. All I can figure is that you are paid to obfuscate the truth on this board and/or to assuage your own guilt. Hey, have at it. You're slummin' wit' da' bottom feeders.
    Well that was certainly a crazy rant, thank you, Dave! I'll submit it to prisonplanet.com on your behalf, I'm sure it'll be a big hit.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    The Crimean government that Russia put in place asked for the Russians to help....... After the Russians had already deployed their forces around the Crimea and put their guys in charge. Pretty convenient.
    It's pretty convenient that the interim government that the US set up in Kiev asked for US help too, isn't it?



    Pyatt: Yeah. I guess... in terms of him (Klitsch) not going into the government, just let him stay out and do his political homework and stuff. I'm just thinking in terms of sort of the process moving ahead we want to keep the moderate democrats together. The problem is going to be Tyahnybok [Oleh Tyahnybok, the other opposition leader] and his guys and I'm sure that's part of what [President Viktor] Yanukovych is calculating on all this.

    Nuland: [Breaks in] I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.

    Pyatt: Yeah, no, I think that's right. OK. Good. Do you want us to set up a call with him as the next step?

    BBC News - Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call


    The US wanted Yats to be leader of Ukraine....and look...now he is.

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    It's pretty convenient that the interim government that the US set up in Kiev asked for US help too, isn't it?



    Pyatt: Yeah. I guess... in terms of him (Klitsch) not going into the government, just let him stay out and do his political homework and stuff. I'm just thinking in terms of sort of the process moving ahead we want to keep the moderate democrats together. The problem is going to be Tyahnybok [Oleh Tyahnybok, the other opposition leader] and his guys and I'm sure that's part of what [President Viktor] Yanukovych is calculating on all this.

    Nuland: [Breaks in] I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.

    Pyatt: Yeah, no, I think that's right. OK. Good. Do you want us to set up a call with him as the next step?

    BBC News - Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call


    The US wanted Yats to be leader of Ukraine....and look...now he is.
    I'll repost this here:

    lol seriously? It'd actually be more impressive if the guy that took control of the country was someone that State Department folks hadn't ever met/hung out with. What do you think foreign service people of all nations get paid to do? They're supposed to hobnob with local/national/regional players and have the inside scoop of who's power is waxing and who's power is waning. That's like...ya know...one of their vital functions?

    You think because he was mentioned, that means he was put in charge. It's the converse: it was because he was a person who could (and, it turns out, would) be in charge that he was mentioned in the first place. You mistook for the effect for the cause. Important people get mentioned in important conversations; as opposed to being mentioned in an important conversation and then becoming important.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  10. #170
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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    It's pretty convenient that the interim government that the US set up in Kiev asked for US help too, isn't it?



    Pyatt: Yeah. I guess... in terms of him (Klitsch) not going into the government, just let him stay out and do his political homework and stuff. I'm just thinking in terms of sort of the process moving ahead we want to keep the moderate democrats together. The problem is going to be Tyahnybok [Oleh Tyahnybok, the other opposition leader] and his guys and I'm sure that's part of what [President Viktor] Yanukovych is calculating on all this.

    Nuland: [Breaks in] I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.

    Pyatt: Yeah, no, I think that's right. OK. Good. Do you want us to set up a call with him as the next step?

    BBC News - Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call


    The US wanted Yats to be leader of Ukraine....and look...now he is.
    My, my. You must really hate the US.

    What evidence do you have that the US installed these guys? None. It doesn't exist because it didn't happen.

    Did the US invade Ukraine? No.

    Did the Russians invade Ukraine? Yes.

    Jeez Louise. Get it straight.

    Diplomats discuss all the time who they'd like to see in power. Russia wanted Obama. Putin was quoted as saying so. Did Russia put Obama in power?

    Can you see how silly this is?
    Everything in your life is a reflection of a choice you have made. If you want a different result, don't blame someone else, or expect others to make a change, you should stop complaining and make a different choice. Remember, the circumstances of your birth don't determine the outcome of your life.

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