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Thread: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    Rather than ridicule the poster on a personal basis, I would be more inclined to examine the case he is making, and investigate the veracity or otherwise of his claims. If he is talking arrant nonsense, with no factual basis whatsoever, it should be child's play to demonstrate that. If however, there is some evidence of clandestine US and UK influence in the Ukrainian coup, perhaps it might be unfair to accuse the poster concerned of promoting insane myths. Very few issues are totally black or white - shades of grey tend to predominate, especially where national interests are concerned.
    If this was his first time bashing US foreign policy then I would have certainly debated him. The fact his, to him, all US foreign policy is evil while all those who oppose the US are agents of good. You'll see him arguing that Japan was justified in Pearl Harbor because of US sanctions, never mind the fact that Japanese war crimes and aggression killed millions. He's currently regarded as one of the top if not indeed the top anti-US poster in this forum and that's including the likes of DaveFagan and RDS. He argued that the US is wrong to intervene against Chinese aggression and expansionism in East Asia and that said Chinese actions are entirely appropriate.
    "The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all" - Joan Robinson
    "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Proud South Korean View Post
    If this was his first time bashing US foreign policy then I would have certainly debated him. The fact his, to him, all US foreign policy is evil while all those who oppose the US are agents of good. You'll see him arguing that Japan was justified in Pearl Harbor because of US sanctions, never mind the fact that Japanese war crimes and aggression killed millions. He's currently regarded as one of the top if not indeed the top anti-US poster in this forum and that's including the likes of DaveFagan and RDS. He argued that the US is wrong to intervene against Chinese aggression and expansionism in East Asia and that said Chinese actions are entirely appropriate.

    If your not going to debate, then you should keep quiet.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Proud South Korean View Post
    If this was his first time bashing US foreign policy then I would have certainly debated him. The fact his, to him, all US foreign policy is evil while all those who oppose the US are agents of good. You'll see him arguing that Japan was justified in Pearl Harbor because of US sanctions, never mind the fact that Japanese war crimes and aggression killed millions. He's currently regarded as one of the top if not indeed the top anti-US poster in this forum and that's including the likes of DaveFagan and RDS. He argued that the US is wrong to intervene against Chinese aggression and expansionism in East Asia and that said Chinese actions are entirely appropriate.
    Well, as a self-described conservative American, I imagine DaveFagan considers himself entitled to criticise the policies of his own nation, in much the same way I feel I have the right to criticise the domestic and foreign policies of the UK.

    I understand that you might feel irritated by recurring criticisms of your nation's foreign policies, but we need to examine the specific criticisms in detail, in order to ascertain their validity or otherwise. Understand that I have not read many of DaveFagan's posts, and I am not necessarily defending any positions he may have taken, nor am I criticising your opposition to his views - I am simply not sufficiently familiar with the issues you have with each other.

    But my approach to these matters devolves about the fact that this is a discussion forum, and in the the course of discussion one is going to encounter diverse views and many with which one may not agree. I find it more constructive to question such views, rather than discount the poster as insane or unreasonably prejudiced.

    To question the morality, legality, and humanity of any nation's foreign policies is not necessarily to show unreasoned prejudice against that nation. All our societies act in a predominantly self-interested manner, irrespective of what ostensible motives we claim, and in many cases we commit breaches of human rights and our responsibilities under the UN Charter. The more powerful we are, the more likely we are to escape any consequences other than a damaged reputation - this is both unfortunate, and can be a danger to the rule of law worldwide. Given the propensity towards nationalism (and somewhat mawkish 'patriotism') in many societies, I am always rather heartened to see anyone openly criticise what he sees as shortcomings in his own society. There should be more of it.
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    Well, as a self-described conservative American, I imagine DaveFagan considers himself entitled to criticise the policies of his own nation, in much the same way I feel I have the right to criticise the domestic and foreign policies of the UK.

    I understand that you might feel irritated by recurring criticisms of your nation's foreign policies, but we need to examine the specific criticisms in detail, in order to ascertain their validity or otherwise. Understand that I have not read many of DaveFagan's posts, and I am not necessarily defending any positions he may have taken, nor am I criticising your opposition to his views - I am simply not sufficiently familiar with the issues you have with each other.

    But my approach to these matters devolves about the fact that this is a discussion forum, and in the the course of discussion one is going to encounter diverse views and many with which one may not agree. I find it more constructive to question such views, rather than discount the poster as insane or unreasonably prejudiced.

    To question the morality, legality, and humanity of any nation's foreign policies is not necessarily to show unreasoned prejudice against that nation. All our societies act in a predominantly self-interested manner, irrespective of what ostensible motives we claim, and in many cases we commit breaches of human rights and our responsibilities under the UN Charter. The more powerful we are, the more likely we are to escape any consequences other than a damaged reputation - this is both unfortunate, and can be a danger to the rule of law worldwide. Given the propensity towards nationalism (and somewhat mawkish 'patriotism') in many societies, I am always rather heartened to see anyone openly criticise what he sees as shortcomings in his own society. There should be more of it.
    Sure that may be your philosophy but mine is that after a few attempts to have a reasonable interaction fails due to dishonesty, ignorance, close-mindedness, and trolling/flaming, then I deem any further interactions useless and generally avoid any contact except the occasional sniping to point out inaccuracies, blatant lies, or to attack trolling.
    BTW I'm South Korean, not American. I'm only right now in the US, by citizenship and loyalty I am firmly South Korean.
    "The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all" - Joan Robinson
    "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Proud South Korean View Post
    Sure that may be your philosophy but mine is that after a few attempts to have a reasonable interaction fails due to dishonesty, ignorance, close-mindedness, and trolling/flaming, then I deem any further interactions useless and generally avoid any contact except the occasional sniping to point out inaccuracies, blatant lies, or to attack trolling.
    BTW I'm South Korean, not American. I'm only right now in the US, by citizenship and loyalty I am firmly South Korean.
    Fair enough - we all find the road to Hell in our own way.

    Believe me, I find many apparent attitudes I encounter here both unreasonable and irritating, and there are a few topics which I avoid if possible (religion and gun-control being foremost amongst their number). But (and this is purely a point of view which applies to myself alone) I see little point in joining a discussion if one is going to personally vilify those with whom one happens to disagree. Surely it is more productive to examine the differences, and attempt to find the reasons the other person thinks so differently? Having said that, I can understand one's reluctance, particularly on American boards, where there is currently so much political polarisation, to engage with people exhibiting diametrically opposed views.

    And we all need to realise that the charges of 'dishonesty, ignorance, close-mindedness, and trolling/flaming' can sometimes be very subjective evaluations, which can with equal validity (or invalidity) be directed at our own posts.

    Another complication with these situations involving a degree of intolerance, is that these boards are international venues, and the value systems with which each of us have grown up are not identical. So what may appear as a self-evident truth to a North American, or an Asian, may not be immediately perceived as such by an European. As I indicated before, life is largely shades of grey.

    My apologies for inadvertently taking you for a US citizen. As a British citizen currently studying in Australia, I am in a not-entirely-dissimilar situation to your good self.
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    Fair enough - we all find the road to Hell in our own way.

    Believe me, I find many apparent attitudes I encounter here both unreasonable and irritating, and there are a few topics which I avoid if possible (religion and gun-control being foremost amongst their number). But (and this is purely a point of view which applies to myself alone) I see little point in joining a discussion if one is going to personally vilify those with whom one happens to disagree. Surely it is more productive to examine the differences, and attempt to find the reasons the other person thinks so differently? Having said that, I can understand one's reluctance, particularly on American boards, where there is currently so much political polarisation, to engage with people exhibiting diametrically opposed views.

    And we all need to realise that the charges of 'dishonesty, ignorance, close-mindedness, and trolling/flaming' can sometimes be very subjective evaluations, which can with equal validity (or invalidity) be directed at our own posts.

    Another complication with these situations involving a degree of intolerance, is that these boards are international venues, and the value systems with which each of us have grown up are not identical. So what may appear as a self-evident truth to a North American, or an Asian, may not be immediately perceived as such by an European. As I indicated before, life is largely shades of grey.

    My apologies for inadvertently taking you for a US citizen. As a British citizen currently studying in Australia, I am in a not-entirely-dissimilar situation to your good self.
    Are my eyes deceiving me or is someone patronising a well regarded poster like PSK?

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    Are my eyes deceiving me or is someone patronising a well regarded poster like PSK?
    No I don't think so or it may be that I'm oblivious to it. Anyways thanks for the compliment.
    "The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all" - Joan Robinson
    "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    Fair enough - we all find the road to Hell in our own way.

    Believe me, I find many apparent attitudes I encounter here both unreasonable and irritating, and there are a few topics which I avoid if possible (religion and gun-control being foremost amongst their number). But (and this is purely a point of view which applies to myself alone) I see little point in joining a discussion if one is going to personally vilify those with whom one happens to disagree. Surely it is more productive to examine the differences, and attempt to find the reasons the other person thinks so differently? Having said that, I can understand one's reluctance, particularly on American boards, where there is currently so much political polarisation, to engage with people exhibiting diametrically opposed views.

    And we all need to realise that the charges of 'dishonesty, ignorance, close-mindedness, and trolling/flaming' can sometimes be very subjective evaluations, which can with equal validity (or invalidity) be directed at our own posts.

    Another complication with these situations involving a degree of intolerance, is that these boards are international venues, and the value systems with which each of us have grown up are not identical. So what may appear as a self-evident truth to a North American, or an Asian, may not be immediately perceived as such by an European. As I indicated before, life is largely shades of grey.

    My apologies for inadvertently taking you for a US citizen. As a British citizen currently studying in Australia, I am in a not-entirely-dissimilar situation to your good self.
    Of course my criteria is very subjective. All I'm trying to say is that I'm not one of those close-minded people who only talks to people who have similar views. When I find people who are open to reason and debate, I'll always welcome a debate and/or discussion with them even if most of our views are different or opposite each other.
    Good luck with your studies. Incidentally I'm also in the US for my studies.
    "The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all" - Joan Robinson
    "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Is that why the USA has installed Oligarchs around Ukraine to maintain order, discipline, etc.
    Can you name a few of these Oligarchs?

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Proud South Korean View Post
    Of course my criteria is very subjective. All I'm trying to say is that I'm not one of those close-minded people who only talks to people who have similar views. When I find people who are open to reason and debate, I'll always welcome a debate and/or discussion with them even if most of our views are different or opposite each other.
    Good luck with your studies. Incidentally I'm also in the US for my studies.
    I understand that, as is mine - subjectivity is unavoidable for the societal reasons I mentioned. I appreciate the point of view you are enunciating, and by and large agree with most of it. I was merely enlarging upon my own philosophy, and the reasons I frequent these boards.

    I do not regard these discussions as an opportunity to prove that my world view is the only correct one (and I hasten to add that I do not think you do), but rather as an opportunity to learn about other views and cultures. I should be very interested to learn more of yours, as I have never been to Korea.

    But, LOL, I am basically apolitical in the party political sense, so you would not find a purely political discussion with me very satisfying. Anyway good luck with your studies also - what is the discipline you are undertaking?
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

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