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Thread: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I dont think the parliamentary represenatives have lost their seats.
    No, I guess they were afraid to show up for work then!
    Likewise, the "Ukrainian only" laws for Russian areas have been rescinded.
    Which changes nothing! The Russians and the Russian-speaking Ukrainians are not going to forget that the coup government's first priority was to try to abolish their language. They may have already set up a situation where it is impossible to prevent the breakup of the Ukraine that was predicted back during the fall of the Soviet Union.
    That aside, I think you have some good points. At some point, legitimate protesters in Kiev did turn into rioting right wing "Pushters".
    I noticed right from the start, that when I tuned in to the news from the other side: on RT, back during the early days of the protests, there were short videos of protest-training camps where demonstrators were being instructed in hand-to-hand combat, and how to use projectiles and shields. The only thing missing was guns...and that was back in the early days and weeks of the demonstrations. The demonstration video shown on U.S. TV news, did not show the storming of public buildings by rioters who looked almost like military police because they had the same equipment! Who outfitted them for the demonstrations? And what credibility do any pro-Ukrainian apologists have to contend that these were peaceful demonstrations until the riot police acted against them. The truth was that the police were taking casualties as they were being surrounded and isolated by rioters, and had to often act in self defense to save their own lives. None of these videos of the assaults by demonstrators in Kiev and other capitals were ever seen on the MSM.

    If the Russians want Crimea and are so sure the Crimeans want them, then give a fair referendum on it with no loaded ballot options, no booted parliametarians, Crimean indepedence as an option on the ballot -it is about the Crimeans right? And...no Russian militia men supervising the "voting".
    It has become plainly evident from what I've seen lately, that the only Ukrainian supporters in Crimea are the minority Tatars, while the Russians in Crimea will likely go for full amalgamation back with Russia to prevent a Ukrainian takeover of their state.

    That question needs to be asked to the Russians as well. My guess is that the answer to both questions is "no".
    I think Putin has so far, indicated that he is going to go hard and straight at the U.S. and European allies in any future cold war or hot war. I would guess that if he was losing a conventional war with the U.S. and Crimea was about to fall, that the nukes would be soon to follow.
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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Russia has to know that they are in no position to go toe-to-toe with the US.

    But, then again...........

    US vs. Russia.jpg


    The solution is simple. The U.S. needs to worry about healthcare, infra-structure, DEFENSE, education, environment, elderly, veterans, children, economy and get their nose out of Russia's business.

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    Russia has to know that they are in no position to go toe-to-toe with the US.
    Really! How many nuclear warheads does it take again to destroy life on Earth? That's a question that was taken seriously back in the days of the Cold War; while too many idiots today thing the nukes have somehow vanished because nobody talks about them anymore:

    According to the Federation of American Scientists, an organization that assesses nuclear weapon stockpiles, in 2013, Russia possessed an estimated 8,500 total nuclear warheads of which 1,800 were strategically operational.[2] The organization also claims that the U.S. had an estimated total 7,700 nuclear warheads of which 1,950 were strategically operational.[1
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia...ss_destruction
    Why should our nastiness be the baggage of an apish past and our kindness uniquely human? Why should we not seek continuity with other animals for our "noble" traits as well?
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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Multinationals have employees all around the world... they are a tiny % of our population and as a whole not keeping us our economy floating. It is like saying don't drug dealers have employees and don't they buy things? The shareholder thing is a CON dodge... most shares are held by a very tiny few.
    So if multinationals don't employee most Americans, what does?

    But you dodge the issue, spending billions of dollars and thousands of American lives so a multinational can reap the reward and 'trickle down' some hard to measure 'benefit' is poor use of tax money. The same mulitnational who were very quick to partner with Russian gas companies. They don't have a stake in any one nation, they measure their 'loyalty ties' more on profit and comps than where they once sprang from.
    But the people that constitute them do. I hate to tell you, but most McDonald's and WalMart and Merrill Lynch and Paramount employees are Americans. Is this just the Team American "corporations acting corporation-y" thing? I find that the most conservative among us have some crazy distrust for the government in the same way that the most liberal among us have some crazy distrust for "multinational corporations". It's just...excessive.

    You keep using the term 'American' when it is multinational. Its takes not one dime out of our trade if the Crimea goes Russian. Trade with the former Warsaw pact is more one sided as we pour money in and little if anything trickles back.
    So where does the money from these multinationals go? Where does most of the money John Deere makes GO?

    If all was fair in love and war the world would be a smoking cinder. trite silly sayings are not good foreign policy.
    What is good foreign policy? Because you seem to be saying it's spreading ideology around instead of a cold, hard look at national interests. What are interests to you, since it's apparently not even economic ones?

    All's fair in love and war, by the way, is just another way to describe the idea of a self-help, anarchical international system, the backbone of neorealism in international relations- itself the backbone for all serious modern international relations study and practice.
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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    The bottom line here is you don't know.
    No, the bottom line is: I dont know and neither do you.

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    As I said, the Crimea has gone 'russian' in past elections, had a russian dominated parliament, but somehow was actually Ukrainian????
    Yeah, thats possible. Voting for a pro Russian Ukrainian party may or may not be the same thing as wanting annexation by Russia.

    To use an analogy from the US civil war, the Union or Confederate support in TN could vary considerably depending on how the secessatiion question was phrased, who asked it, and under what circumstances it was asked.
    Last edited by Cryptic; 03-08-14 at 03:36 PM.

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    Russia has to know that they are in no position to go toe-to-toe with the US.

    But, then again...........

    US vs. Russia.jpg
    LOL. That's a great picture.

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Please do read the article that Dave just linked. I agree somewhat with all you said, especially about this being for oil while humanitarian concerns are typical US smoke and mirrors.
    I've read it (link in post #170) and it lays things out rather clearly.

    As far as I'm concerned, Russia can have eastern Ukraine since apparently much of that part of the country which includes Crimea is pro-Russia. The problem, of course, is the zero-sum game the EU and the U.S. are playing. They seem to be taking this all or nothing approach betting that the world will come to their (our) side if Russia could be made to look like the aggressor/invader and non-compliant with the rule of law were the democratic process is concerned. It's one helluva gamble!
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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Very interesting article. Still 10 years later.

    And I agree that regarding expansionism, breaking treaties and international law, and geostrategic meddling, Russia is doing nothing fundamentally different than the West has been doing for a while.

    However, I am very much in favor of preparing NATO for the worst case. Because for me, as a central European, it boils down to the simple question: In what kind of system do I prefer to live -- our current Western system, or a Russian style system?
    It sounds like the people in the Crimean and other eastern regions identify as Russian and want an affiliation with them. I believe in the right to self determination so I'm inclined to let them have their way if that is what the majority wants.

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    It sounds like the people in the Crimean and other eastern regions identify as Russian and want an affiliation with them. I believe in the right to self determination so I'm inclined to let them have their way if that is what the majority wants.
    I agree; however, I believe Russia invading and holding referenda at gunpoint is not a viable way to determine what these people want.

    Let's get an international troop in first and then hold a referendum under their watch. That would be legitimate.

    It doesn't look like, though, that Putin has even the slightest interest in such a solution.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    For those who are interested, The New York Times has a piece that discusses sovereignty vs. self-determination. Both can be conflicting principles and application is complex and inconsistent.

    The article can be found at:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/wo...y.html?hp&_r=0

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