Page 20 of 31 FirstFirst ... 10181920212230 ... LastLast
Results 191 to 200 of 302

Thread: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

  1. #191
    Educator
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Last Seen
    03-25-14 @ 05:46 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    873

    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    The problem is that there has been far too much talk in the United States about bringing Russia into NATO. The problem with that is that it increases the probability that an armed conflict could break out between Russia and the United States. There is nothing in the Ukraine that is worth a war between the United States and Russia.
    Who has ever talked about bringing Russia into NATO? The whole point of NATO was to block the former Soviet Union, and they made a deal with the Russian Government after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, that they would not expand into the former Warsaw Pact nations in an agreement with Yeltsin to allow East Germany to quietly fall to the West, and remove their troops and bases. As soon as Clinton got elected, that deal was broken! And it has been violated ever since by both Republican and Democratic presidents (further indication that what really counts is the Deep State that operates away from public scrutiny in the halls of government and business).

    The U.S. has no intentions of bringing Russia into NATO, or the E.U. inviting Russia in...even though it would be to their obvious economic advantage, as Russia is their main supplier of gas and oil. And they are not inviting China into this TPP secret "trade" agreement they are concocting today. The whole point of NATO and these trade agreements is to encircle and cut off Russia and China, both militarily and economically, until or unless they are no longer centers of oppositional economic power to the establishment that runs the WTO and controls international finance.

    To me, this is one of those issues where you get to root for the bad guy! Because the alternative is the full consolidation of globalization. Whatever Putin does or doesn't do (just a thought, why is Russia referred to as an oligarchy, while the U.S. is not?), he is at least a source of opposition to the greatest evil on the planet...which happens to control our money, our communications, our media, our laws, and needless to say - our political systems!
    Why should our nastiness be the baggage of an apish past and our kindness uniquely human? Why should we not seek continuity with other animals for our "noble" traits as well?
    Stephen J. Gould

  2. #192
    Guru

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:32 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    3,898

    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    So what was the number of vacated seats? But once again that doesn't explain the previous presidential elections being so far in the Russian leaning president's favor. Using only one pin point of data is how false premises are built and how huge blunders are made.
    I dont know. Using the 2000 census, and if the number of seats mirrored the ethnic make up, the number of "vacated" seats could have been 30 so so - maybe even more if the number of indigenous Tatars has gone up.

    In either case, look at the pictures of Crimean streets. Though there are thousands of Russian security contractors and militiamen present, the Ukrainians are locked up in their barracks, the Russians contractors have not exactly been greeted with ticker tape parades and the "parliament's" referendum and following announcement by the Russian parliament was not greeted with wild adulation. Rather, there has been some support from some ethnic Russians for annexation by Russia.

  3. #193
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Last Seen
    08-18-15 @ 09:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,974

    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Commie View Post
    Who has ever talked about bringing Russia into NATO?
    WOW!!!

    MY BAD BIG TIME!!!!

    Meant to say bringing Ukraine into NATO!!!!!

    Typo

  4. #194
    Guru

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:32 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    3,898

    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Commie View Post
    Is that any different than what happened in Kiev? Armed fascist demonstrators (trained and equipped by U.S. NGO's supposedly doing charitable work) overpowered police and security; the elected government resigned, the President fled because of growing lack of cooperation from leaders of his own security forces (indicating either a possible military coup in the works, or that they would allow him to fall to the mob like happened to one of the governors; the new parliament declares it has established a "legitimate" government (with no representation from Crimea or the eastern provinces, and even drafts a law as its first order of business making Ukrainian the ONLY language...ensuring a further divide;
    I dont think the parliamentary represenatives have lost their seats. Likewise, the "Ukrainian only" laws for Russian areas have been rescinded. That aside, I think you have some good points. At some point, legitimate protesters in Kiev did turn into rioting right wing "Pushters".

    If the Russians want Crimea and are so sure the Crimeans want them, then give a fair referendum on it with no loaded ballot options, no booted parliametarians, Crimean indepedence as an option on the ballot -it is about the Crimeans right? And...no Russian militia men supervising the "voting".
    Quote Originally Posted by Commie View Post
    The only question left to be answered is: are they psychopathic enough to roll the dice and risk a full out nuclear war with Russia?
    That question needs to be asked to the Russians as well. My guess is that the answer to both questions is "no".
    Last edited by Cryptic; 03-08-14 at 02:45 PM.

  5. #195
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    okla-freakin-homa
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:09 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    12,619

    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Don't they have employees? Employees who buy things? Buy things from companies that have employees? Don't they have shareholders? What did you have for dinner last night? How much did it cost? You're the one that brought it up. No, we wouldn't. But it's about American interests, not playing fair. Because it's in the pursuit of American interests. That's the point. All's fair in love and war, means something. Not "all's fair in love and war except for like when you talk about trade and human rights"- everything. All.
    Multinationals have employees all around the world... they are a tiny % of our population and as a whole not keeping us our economy floating. It is like saying don't drug dealers have employees and don't they buy things? The shareholder thing is a CON dodge... most shares are held by a very tiny few.

    But you dodge the issue, spending billions of dollars and thousands of American lives so a multinational can reap the reward and 'trickle down' some hard to measure 'benefit' is poor use of tax money. The same mulitnational who were very quick to partner with Russian gas companies. They don't have a stake in any one nation, they measure their 'loyalty ties' more on profit and comps than where they once sprang from.

    You keep using the term 'American' when it is multinational. Its takes not one dime out of our trade if the Crimea goes Russian. Trade with the former Warsaw pact is more one sided as we pour money in and little if anything trickles back.

    If all was fair in love and war the world would be a smoking cinder. trite silly sayings are not good foreign policy.

  6. #196
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    okla-freakin-homa
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:09 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    12,619

    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I dont know. Using the 2000 census, and if the number of seats mirrored the ethnic make up, the number of "vacated" seats could have been 30 so so - maybe even more if the number of indigenous Tatars has gone up. In either case, look at the pictures of Crimean streets. Though there are thousands of Russian security contractors and militiamen present, the Ukrainians are locked up in their barracks, the Russians contractors have not exactly been greeted with ticker tape parades and the "parliament's" referendum and following announcement by the Russian parliament was not greeted with wild adulation. Rather, there has been some support from some ethnic Russians for annexation by Russia.
    The bottom line here is you don't know.

    The very best you can claim and with NO facts to back it up is the vote wouldn't have been so lopsided but it still would have been for joining back to Russia. (course it could also go totally independent with strong ties to Russia to survive economically the facts seem to suggest there is little love for staying Ukrainian as the Crimea was never Ukrainian until 1955.)

    Now as far as pictures go... some have already been proven to be false, the line of Russian armored vehicles another CON tried to say was in country. The Ukrainians have been outside their barracks but again, try and get this one idea, for many Crimeans, the Ukraines are as much an invader as anyone else.

    Spin it as you will, still the bottom line is a dominate population that never was part of the Ukraine, was a semi autonomous region for a REASON, now doesn't want to be part of the region they were tacked onto. As I said, the Crimea has gone 'russian' in past elections, had a russian dominated parliament, but somehow was actually Ukrainian????

  7. #197
    Jedi Master
    Captain America's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:54 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    18,647

    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Nothing is over, in fact its going to get more intense. Obama has already threatened to "isolate" Russia, but this does not appear to be sufficient to stop Russia. This conflict is about get worse.

    In the mean time, the flag of the Russian Empire (end of XIX c) hangs on Russian BTR in Crimea.



    трасса Краснодар-Новороссийск, колонна войск РФ в Крым | VK

    Obama needs to ignore all those Washington scaliwags acting all butt-hurt over Russia and the Ukraine and want to start making threats and sword rattling.

    100% of the elected Crimean officials, as I understand it, voted to go over to Russia. Over 60% of the population wants to be Russian. Who the **** does Obama think he is making demands on these people? If they want to go, he needs to keep our nose out of it. I don't care. They are all commies to me. Not worth one drop of American blood or one single taxpayer dime. But that's just me.

    Screw all that bravado, bad-ass posing, Obama. You got nukes. You don't have to puff out your chest and beat it like a gorilla. That's for neocons. Don't get sucked into the bull**** the war dogs are throwing at you. I am very disappointed in the President over this. He has more important things to do.

    crimea.jpg

    It's GREAT to be me. --- "45% liberal/55% conservative"
    Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy" until you can find a gun.

  8. #198
    Educator
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Last Seen
    03-25-14 @ 05:46 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    873

    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    WOW!!!

    MY BAD BIG TIME!!!!

    Meant to say bringing Ukraine into NATO!!!!!

    Typo
    Okay, I'll rephrase my response then: Russia is never going to allow more than a western rump state Ukraine to join NATO.

    What I find has been most ignored and overlooked by all of the western observers, is that Putin's rise to power came largely because he was the kind of leader that most Russians were looking for after the collapse of the Soviet Union. The feeling of collective humiliation...having to go make deals to privatize their economy to get loans from western banks, and pull their troops home and allow NATO expansion, led directly to Putin's rise to power. Attempts to personalize the conflict as just a result of a megalomaniac in Moscow, ignores the trend towards nationalism of Russian people. The attempt to flip Ukraine to the west, and threaten Russia with sanctions is not going to reduce Putin's popularity or prestige in Russia. So, if it keeps up, a full scale war could be the eventual result.
    Why should our nastiness be the baggage of an apish past and our kindness uniquely human? Why should we not seek continuity with other animals for our "noble" traits as well?
    Stephen J. Gould

  9. #199
    Jedi Master
    Captain America's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:54 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    18,647

    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    What we have here is a sort of a "Bay of Pigs," scenario, in reverse.

    Instead of Russia supporting a communist country in our back yard, we have the US supporting a Western leaning country in Russia's back yard.

    The irony is, (or hypocracy if you prefer,) when Russia did it, they were wrong but when we do it, we're right?

    Hmmmmmmm................

    Not saying it's apples for apples, just kinda similar.

    It's GREAT to be me. --- "45% liberal/55% conservative"
    Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy" until you can find a gun.

  10. #200
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Last Seen
    08-18-15 @ 09:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,974

    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Commie View Post
    Okay, I'll rephrase my response then: Russia is never going to allow more than a western rump state Ukraine to join NATO.

    What I find has been most ignored and overlooked by all of the western observers, is that Putin's rise to power came largely because he was the kind of leader that most Russians were looking for after the collapse of the Soviet Union. The feeling of collective humiliation...having to go make deals to privatize their economy to get loans from western banks, and pull their troops home and allow NATO expansion, led directly to Putin's rise to power. Attempts to personalize the conflict as just a result of a megalomaniac in Moscow, ignores the trend towards nationalism of Russian people. The attempt to flip Ukraine to the west, and threaten Russia with sanctions is not going to reduce Putin's popularity or prestige in Russia. So, if it keeps up, a full scale war could be the eventual result.
    I agree with what you have said here. There has been way to much emphasis placed on demonizing Putin in this crisis. It's counterproductive and it needs to stop.

Page 20 of 31 FirstFirst ... 10181920212230 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •