• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

Fallenangel said:
...and this video was taken on the Krasnodar-Novorosiysk road - which is in Russia.
They might eventually head to Crimea, but it was not taken in Crimea.


No, sounds like they are Nazis...as "Moskaliv na nozi, moskaliv na nozi!" is a chant used by the Ukrainian neo-Nazis/neo-Banderovtsy.



Fallen.
Click to expand...


I'm curious about your stance which you never seemed to have clearly defined. Your authority on this subject is and has been acknowledged but it seems (if I'm not mistaken) that you're straddling a middle ground.
 
Fallenangel said:
...and this video was taken on the Krasnodar-Novorosiysk road - which is in Russia.
They might eventually head to Crimea, but it was not taken in Crimea.


No, sounds like they are Nazis...as "Moskaliv na nozi, moskaliv na nozi!" is a chant used by the Ukrainian neo-Nazis/neo-Banderovtsy.



Fallen.
Click to expand...


They are sporting the flag of the Russian empire as they invade another country. Now refresh my memory-when was the last time Russia was an empire.

And I believe the term "nazi" is quite derogatory to Russians, its like they had a bad experience once...
 
StringBean said:
This is the first indication that Russia wants to illegally annex part of Ukraine?

Perhaps sending troops into a sovereign nation was really the first...
Click to expand...

We've sent troops into many sovereign nations with far FAR less legitimacy then Putin has.
 
Proud South Korean said:
It is worrying, but here are some considerations that leaves me divided:
1) People have the right to self-determination. If the people of Crimea wants to become part of Russia, then they have a right to do it. It's the business of the US to intervene
2) However, a fair referendum would be highly unlikely if not impossible. Although the results would be undoubtedly for being annexed, the fact that there's Russian troops and Ukrainian paramilitaries (both pro and anti-Russian) makes the atmosphere not fit for a fair referendum. Regardless of whether the result would have been fair or not, the process is what's important.
3) The fact that Russia has moved its military into action into Ukraina makes it a very big issue.
4) The fact that land is being annexed by a country much noted for its human rights abuse and repression along with unsavory geopolitical aspirations makes annexation, even if it's justified, makes it objectionable.

So Russian military action and its political climate that makes annexation so unsavory even if it's justified. A solution would be for Russia to withdraw its forces from Ukraina and have the UN (ineffective it is) or some other unbiased (thinking back, the UN doesn't apply here does it?) international organization oversee and ensure that a fair referendum happens.
Click to expand...

I agree with this, except for the last part-I think Ukraine should figure it out first. I dont think Russia violating the territorial integrity and national sovereignty of Ukraine is the right move.
 
Ray410 said:
The United States is presently at an usual confluence of events. We have an incompetent bumbling administration combined with the fact that the American people want the rest of the world to screw off.
Click to expand...
If the American people want the rest of the world to screw off than the administration is listening to the American people.

Is that not democracy?
 
24107 said:
If the American people want the rest of the world to screw off than the administration is listening to the American people.

Is that not democracy?
Click to expand...

Call it whatever you want, the bottom line remains the same. How many times do I have to repeat the same post?
 
Ray410 said:
The United States is presently at an usual confluence of events. We have an incompetent bumbling administration combined with the fact that the American people want the rest of the world to screw off. Americans are tired of endless wars for nothing, tired of seeing our young men die in foreign countries for aholes that don't even want us there, tired of giving away money for nothing. We want to bring our people home, the war is over.

If Obama's incompetent bumbling and lack of knowledge keep us out of this, the American people will rightfully cheer the result.
Click to expand...

I dont think military aid or intervention will ever happen-nor should it. However, Putin can't just invade a nation because he feels like it.
 
24107 said:
So you don't like people who have a brain and think about foreign policy, even after the Iraq war was based on false claims that it had WMD's and caused the deaths of thousands of American troops and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi kids.
Click to expand...

lol what? What do you "think about foreign policy"? What publications do you read? Have you read books on the subject?

lol "think about foreign policy" you're funny
 
24107 said:
So you don't like people who have a brain and think about foreign policy, even after the Iraq war was based on false claims that it had WMD's and caused the deaths of thousands of American troops and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi kids.
Click to expand...

There are people who literally don't give a **** what we do anywhere if it advances "US interests" (which rarely if ever equate to your interests or mine) regardless of who gets hurt or killed along the way, or what gets destroyed or stolen. Literally, these people exist.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
I'll never understand the "who are we to _____" crowd. "We" are a nation with global interests, and when you have interests somewhere, you have a stake in what happens there. Whether the US gets involved or not is one thing, but the "who are we to" argument isn't a good one.
Click to expand...

I would say that the US has no strong vital interests in the Ukraine. However, Russia certainly has such interests. As such, we should have left well enough alone there.

It would be different if Putin where overthrowing the government in Mexico and putting Russian MIGs, missiles, and troops there. Then I would be saying, get him the hell out of there, no matter what the cost, EVEN IF IT MEANT A WAR WITH RUSSIA. But that's not the case here.
 
Montecresto said:
There are people who literally don't give a **** what we do anywhere if it advances "US interests" (which rarely if ever equate to your interests or mine) regardless of who gets hurt or killed along the way, or what gets destroyed or stolen. Literally, these people exist.
Click to expand...
Yes, these people are most likely paid to spread lies on the Internet.
 
US Conservative said:
I agree with this, except for the last part-I think Ukraine should figure it out first. I dont think Russia violating the territorial integrity and national sovereignty of Ukraine is the right move.
Click to expand...

That's why I said that Russia should immediately withdraw its forces from Ukraina (which in case those who are reading this thinks it's a typo, is a rough English pronunciation in Ukrainian for Ukraine). I doubt that Ukraina is in a state to oversee regional referendums given the highly violent and toxic atmosphere there. This reminds of the Weimar Republic when there were mass uprisings by both the left and the right, when there was pitched street battles between thugs, when voter intimidation, propaganda, hate, and politicking was the norm. There were armed paramilitaries by both (well, many) sides, armed groups carried out hundreds of shootings and assassinations. The exact situation in Ukraina right now.
It would be best for an unbiased international organization to oversee a referendum but sadly there's no suitable organization now.
 
MildSteel said:
I would say that the US has no strong vital interests in the Ukraine. However, Russia certainly has such interests. As such, we should have left well enough alone there.

It would be different if Putin where overthrowing the government in Mexico and putting Russian MIGs, missiles, and troops there. Then I would be saying, get him the hell out of there, no matter what the cost, EVEN IF IT MEANT A WAR WITH RUSSIA. But that's not the case here.
Click to expand...

That's fine but "who are we to interfere?" Is such a silly question. The US has interests all over the world. Every plan of action needs to adopt a cost benefit analysis, but to just not do it because of some narrative? Horrible.
 
Proud South Korean said:
It is worrying, but here are some considerations that leaves me divided:
1) People have the right to self-determination. If the people of Crimea wants to become part of Russia, then they have a right to do it. It's the business of the US to intervene
2) However, a fair referendum would be highly unlikely if not impossible. Although the results would be undoubtedly for being annexed, the fact that there's Russian troops and Ukrainian paramilitaries (both pro and anti-Russian) makes the atmosphere not fit for a fair referendum. Regardless of whether the result would have been fair or not, the process is what's important.
3) The fact that Russia has moved its military into action into Ukraina makes it a very big issue.
4) The fact that land is being annexed by a country much noted for its human rights abuse and repression along with unsavory geopolitical aspirations makes annexation, even if it's justified, makes it objectionable.

So Russian military action and its political climate that makes annexation so unsavory even if it's justified. A solution would be for Russia to withdraw its forces from Ukraina and have the UN (ineffective it is) or some other unbiased (thinking back, the UN doesn't apply here does it?) international organization oversee and ensure that a fair referendum happens.
Click to expand...

5) The fact that the US was involved for a very long time creating, facilitating, very much supporting what transpired late last year, legitimizes Russia's actions.
 
Montecresto said:
5) The fact that the US was involved for a very long time creating, facilitating, very much supporting what transpired late last year, legitimizes Russia's actions.
Click to expand...

lol would you stop
 
Montecresto said:
5) The fact that the US was involved for a very long time creating, facilitating, very much supporting what transpired late last year, legitimizes Russia's actions.
Click to expand...

Right, those eeevvvvviiiill Americans! Death to them all!
 
US Conservative said:
They are sporting the flag of the Russian empire as they invade another country. Now refresh my memory-when was the last time Russia was an empire.

And I believe the term "nazi" is quite derogatory to Russians, its like they had a bad experience once...
Click to expand...

...lets recap:
You posted a screen shot from a video which depicts Russian troops in Russia, and claimed that it was taken in Crimea.
You posted a video of Ukrainian nationalist chanting "Moskalilv na noz!" which is equivalent to "Kill the Russians!/ Death to Russians!" and claimed that these were supposedly Russians.
When presented with the fact that the chant is actually a neo-Nazi/neo-Baderovtsy chant, instead of addressing it you came up with the two idiotic statements above.

So, maybe instead of posting one sentence bs statements, you would work on not posting vids and pics with false/made-up "headlines".

Fallen.
 
Proud South Korean said:
Only when the money he gets paid stops.
Click to expand...

I mean...it's one thing to have his opinions but jeeeeez: he's now arguing that if a nation facilitates or influences things in another nation, it's legitimate for a third nation to invade it.






I wonder if he'd accept the US making that kind of argument lol
 
US Conservative said:
I dont think military aid or intervention will ever happen-nor should it. However, Putin can't just invade a nation because he feels like it.
Click to expand...

It's not just because he feels like it (though it worked for Bush) its because a Western backed coup toppled the Ukrainian government in violent protestations, and Russia is responding by securing its physical assets and Russian speaking citizens there that are loyal to Moscow. And if they so choose to be annexed, so be that too.
 
StringBean said:
This is the first indication that Russia wants to illegally annex part of Ukraine? Perhaps sending troops into a sovereign nation was really the first...
Click to expand...

I wonder if say the people of Petsamo voted to rejoin Finland, and leave Russia, if we would call that illegal? Considering the Russians have defense of Russian military property rights in the Crimea- and I point out again the Crimea wasn't part of the Ukraine until the mid 50's, the presence of Russian troops isn't the same as if Finland sent troops into Petsamo to 'protect' Sami natives.

What many forget is the majority rule in the Crimea are Russians not Ukrainians. The Crimea is a semi-autonomous region, not a fully integrated administrative district in the Ukraine. No love for Russia but using hate to condemn what we would salute the other way round isn't very smart.
 
US Conservative said:
I dont think military aid or intervention will ever happen-nor should it. However, Putin can't just invade a nation because he feels like it.
Click to expand...

Apparently he can. No one, including the US or EU will stop him. We'll threaten, maybe issue sanctions, but little else. Russia knows what they're doing, they picked the right time, and picked the right US president to mess with. He did so with Georgia with no problem. The danger is he may not want to stop and his ego may get the better of him - that is dangerous, as are his reasons, which I have to agree with Hillary, are reminiscent of Germany in the 1930's.

Couple that with the recent plans to downsize our military - we're relegated to being a cheerleader on the sideline unless a coalition allies have the cajones to stand up to him. I don't see that happening. By the way, that ringing in the background is the telephone and it's the 1980's calling Obama. They want to tell him Romney was right.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
That's fine but "who are we to interfere?" Is such a silly question. The US has interests all over the world. Every plan of action needs to adopt a cost benefit analysis, but to just not do it because of some narrative? Horrible.
Click to expand...

OK. I agree with that. But like you say, there needs to be clear cost benefit analysis done. And if it's not worth it, as in this case, you leave it alone.
 
Proud South Korean said:
Right, those eeevvvvviiiill Americans! Death to them all!
Click to expand...

Wtf. The American people are going to work, raising families, etc. they're not responsible for this, nor should they all die. What a thing to suggest.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom