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Thread: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    You better hold yours then too! So, why would we risk such a thing, just to protect the interests of some of the Ukrainians.
    Frankly, I wouldn't. However, I can understand why NATO would assuming they view Russia's presence in Ukraine as a occupation force rather than a democratic decision made by the Ukrainian government with the consent of its people. That's the point I'm trying to get across here.

    The EU, U.S. and NATO are correct to be concerned here. However, I don't believe their motives are pure in that they care about the Ukrainian people as much as they care more about what they stand to gain from Ukraine coming into the EU as opposed to its government via the voice of the Ukrainian people agreeing to be absorbed back into Russian territory.

    I make no delusions about what's going on and what's at stake. It's all about OIL w/Western Ukraine being the big prize.
    "A fair exchange ain't no robbery." Tupac Shakur w/Digital Underground

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Actually, histroically, we have installed dictators friendly to USA Corpoorations to manage the Nations we invade. Does "Banana Republics" ring a bell. What's going on is Corporate hegemony and the underlying impetus that got "Citizens United" through the Supreme Court. If this continues, we're screwed. I'll attach an article that refers this to Breinski's Grand Chessboard. Please read.

    Brzezinski Directing War Strategies from the Shadows

    “From the moment the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, the United States has relentlessly pursued a strategy of encircling Russia, just as it has with other perceived enemies like China and Iran. It has brought 12 countries in central Europe, all of them formerly allied with Moscow, into the NATO alliance. US military power is now directly on Russia’s borders…This crisis is in part the result of a zero-sum calculation that has shaped US policy toward Moscow since the Cold War: Any loss for Russia is an American victory, and anything positive that happens to, for, or in Russia is bad for the United States. This is an approach that intensifies confrontation, rather than soothing it.”
    Wow! Great article Dave, all of it. This part grabs me though.

    But listen to the tone of Brzezinski’s op-ed. In just a few short paragraphs, the author–who many respect as a restrained and brilliant global strategist–refers to Putin as a thug, a Mafia gangster, Mussolini, and Hitler. I imagine if he had another paragraph to work with, he would have added Beelzebub Satan to the list.

    While Henry Kissinger tweeted out a couple days ago that all the demonization of Putin as Hitler is not policy, but an alabi, for no policy.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I would not say its all nonsense. As of now, the "referendum" will be supervised by Russian militias and has been "simplified" with guided questions and does not include independence as an option.

    As for states leaving, yes I see your point. At the same time, the Russians have not practiced what they preach. Neither have we (civil war). The Chechens tried to leave Russia - the Russian response was a little different. Likewise, if Karelians (Finns) tried to take Karelia to Finland - such a move would probably be supported by ethnic Russians in the area, Moscow would have a "coniption fit" about Karelia being an intrinsic part of Russia.
    Good points, IMO.

    I agree it is not perfect, or even close to perfect. And I do have reservations about the fairness of the referendum.
    However, with most Crimeans being of Russian descent and the fact that the Ukraine is a political and financial mess...I have a feeling that Russian troops or no Russian troops, the Crimea would rather be part of Russia then the Ukraine. I certainly would were I an ethnic Russian Crimean.

    I said it before, the Russians will not (IMO) cross into Ukraine-proper, en masse, unless a civil war starts there. They know to do so would mean a collapse of exports that their economy depends on, which would mean a collapse of the Russian economy, which would mean Putin would be tossed from power...no chance (IMO) he will risk that; no matter how badly he wants a stronger Russian 'empire'.

    This is no new Cold War...this is a mess in the Ukraine which Russia is (semi-skillfully, IMO) using as a way to 'legally' grab the Crimea...which was semi-autonomous/mostly Russian anyway.

    America detains innocent people forever without charge, bombs any country they feel like, props up/destroys any regime they like/don't like and gives weapons to any group that strikes her fancy.
    To fault the Russians is fine. But for Obama/Congress to freak out about what is going on in the Crimea is STAGGERINGLY hypocritical.

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Frankly, I wouldn't. However, I can understand why NATO would assuming they view Russia's presence in Ukraine as a occupation force rather than a democratic decision made by the Ukrainian government with the consent of its people. That's the point I'm trying to get across here.

    The EU, U.S. and NATO are correct to be concerned here. However, I don't believe their motives are pure in that they care about the Ukrainian people as much as they care more about what they stand to gain from Ukraine coming into the EU as opposed to its government via the voice of the Ukrainian people agreeing to be absorbed back into Russian territory.

    I make no delusions about what's going on and what's at stake. It's all about OIL w/Western Ukraine being the big prize.
    Please do read the article that Dave just linked. I agree somewhat with all you said, especially about this being for oil while humanitarian concerns are typical US smoke and mirrors.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I would not say its all nonsense. As of now, the "referendum" will be supervised by Russian militias and has been "simplified" with guided questions and does not include independence as an option.

    As for states leaving, yes I see your point. At the same time, the Russians have not practiced what they preach. Neither have we (civil war). The Chechens tried to leave Russia - the Russian response was a little different. Likewise, if Karelians (Finns) tried to take Karelia to Finland - such a move would probably be supported by ethnic Russians in the area, Moscow would have a "coniption fit" about Karelia being an intrinsic part of Russia.
    It all goes back to what I said earlier: If Russia is viewed as an occupying force on top of the so-called "free elections" being viewed as corrupt, then the world (NATO) will hold Russia in contempt. Thus, I ask again where Russia's "regional" (notquiteright's term, post #167) or national security interest are concerned (i.e., protecting their oil pipelines that run through Ukraine or their Black Sea ports they leased to Ukraine), have these assets been threatened by Ukrainian military or militia groups? If not, then IMO Russia has no business sending their military into the Ukraine.
    "A fair exchange ain't no robbery." Tupac Shakur w/Digital Underground

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Thus, I ask again where Russia's "regional" (notquiteright's term, post #167) or national security interest are concerned (i.e., protecting their oil pipelines that run through Ukraine or their Black Sea ports they leased to Ukraine), have these assets been threatened by Ukrainian military or militia groups? If not, then IMO Russia has no business sending their military into the Ukraine.
    I see the logic. However, for the logic to hold, everyone must agree on the definitions of both terms (threat and Ukraine). Crimea was part of Russia for two hundred years before it was tranfered to Ukraine (conveniently by an ethnically Ukrainian soviet premier). With that in mind, Russia concludes that Crimea is not "Ukraine".

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    I agree it is not perfect, or even close to perfect. And I do have reservations about the fairness of the referendum.
    However, with most Crimeans being of Russian descent and the fact that the Ukraine is a political and financial mess...I have a feeling that Russian troops or no Russian troops, the Crimea would rather be part of Russia then the Ukraine. I certainly would were I an ethnic Russian Crimean.
    There was a referendum twenty years ago ( a fair one) and most locals went for Ukraine. Likewise, the census data showing Russians in a strong majority is 13 years old - and large numbers of indigenous Tatars (pro Ukrainian) have returned to the area as well as the possibility of ethnic Russians having left. Even the Russian definition of "Russian" might be stretched. A certain number of the Russians are Russian gypsies and might not be inclined to vote along stretched ethnic lines.

    If independence is an option (something the Russians dont want on the ballot), then the referendum gets even more cloudy. With all this, one can see why the Russians dont want to take chances with even remotely fair referendum.

    I do, however, agree with your point about hypocrisy. Some how I think Obama would have a very different reaction if Puerto Rico tried to leave the USA. Likewise, the feds have announced that Alaska cant leave - even if they want to. Of course, splitting up other countires such as Serbia is a different matter....
    Last edited by Cryptic; 03-08-14 at 11:28 AM.

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Martin Armstrong: Obama "Using Same Nonsense As Putin"

    'For Obama to claim that a public vote in Crimea would violate the Constitution of Ukraine and International Law is really just as absurd that the same argument put forth by Putin that nothing in Kiev was legal because it was not signed by Yanukovych. There should be a vote, but it should be monitored independently to ensure it is real. To argue that no state may move to secede from a federal government is ridiculous. Obama said:

    “Any discussion about the future of Ukraine must include the legitimate government of Ukraine. In 2014, we are well beyond the days when borders can be redrawn over the heads of democratic leaders.”
    Texas has the ABSOLUTE right to secede from the United States if it so desired and the Washington has no right to invade Texas to prevent that – although they too would in the blink-of-an-eye.'


    Martin Armstrong: Obama "Using Same Nonsense As Putin" | Zero Hedge

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    It all goes back to what I said earlier: If Russia is viewed as an occupying force on top of the so-called "free elections" being viewed as corrupt, then the world (NATO) will hold Russia in contempt. Thus, I ask again where Russia's "regional" (notquiteright's term, post #167) or national security interest are concerned (i.e., protecting their oil pipelines that run through Ukraine or their Black Sea ports they leased to Ukraine), have these assets been threatened by Ukrainian military or militia groups? If not, then IMO Russia has no business sending their military into the Ukraine.
    Now the other side of this coin-

    What if Russia viewed the agitation in the Ukraine as western instigated and the West pushing for a coup that doesn't change 'corrupt' a bit but now the crooks and goons are not allied to Russia? What if their intel services are convinced the CIA and other clandestine agencies are at work and can lay out a good 'power point' to convince their civilian leadership this is aimed at the Russians using the Ukraine thug element as a proxy force? Combine this with past USofA meddling- the BushII era Star Wars deployments to Poland for instance- and I can see how the Russian leadership feels the Cold War isn't over, it has moved hundreds of kilometers closer.

    If the USofA waited until AFTER a blow to our regional security actually caused harm, say Venezuelan based goons attacked Gulf oil platforms or some such would we say our defense dept was doing it's job? I don't think so. Russia waiting until AFTER the Ukrainians sabotaged pipelines or captured the Crimean naval bases is dumb. Putin isn't dumb.

    But the Russians have not entered 'traditional' Ukraine have they? They have bolstered their troops in the Crimea, again not a part of the Ukraine historically with little if any cultural ties to the Ukraine. But they are not in the Ukraine so I think the constant referring to the Crimea as 'Ukrainian' is a false.

    The Crimean Penn should never have been attached to the Ukraine- this is a simple rectification of an earlier mistake.

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I see the logic. However, for the logic to hold, everyone must agree on the definitions of both terms (threat and Ukraine). Crimea was part of Russia for two hundred years before it was tranfered to Ukraine (conveniently by an ethnically Ukrainian soviet premier). With that in mind, Russia concludes that Crimea is not "Ukraine".



    There was a referendum twenty years ago ( a fair one) and most locals went for Ukraine. Likewise, the census data showing Russians in a strong majority is 13 years old - and large numbers of indigenous Tatars (pro Ukrainian) have returned to the area as well as the possibility of ethnic Russians having left. Even the Russian definition of "Russian" might be stretched. A certain number of the Russians are Russian gypsies and might not be inclined to vote along stretched ethnic lines.

    If independence is an option (something the Russians dont want on the ballot), then the referendum gets even more cloudy. With all this, one can see why the Russians dont want to take chances with even remotely fair referendum.

    I do, however, agree with your point about hypocrisy. Some how I think Obama would have a very different reaction if Puerto Rico tried to leave the USA. Likewise, the feds have announced that Alaska cant leave - even if they want to. Of course, splitting up other countires such as Serbia is a different matter....
    Not so sure the recent elections bolster your argument that the Crimea wouldn't vote for Russia. the semi-autonomous parliament voted that way. The Crimea has voted for the Russian leaning now ousted President.

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    Re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Please do read the article that Dave just linked. I agree somewhat with all you said, especially about this being for oil while humanitarian concerns are typical US smoke and mirrors.
    Are the Russians there for humanitarian purposes but have no interest in oil?

    You appear to give to much credit to Barrack Obama's smoke and mirrors abilities, especially in international politics..

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