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Thread: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

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    re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Thats not what I asked, I asked if they were justified in your "view", and I use that term loosely.

    In the mean time, Russia is expanding its military spending by 40%.
    Putin has transformed Russian army into a lean, mean fighting machine - Washington Times
    No, of course not. The present Ukrainian government is illegitimate. And of course Russia's military expenditures are up as is China's, and so should other countries watching US belligerence and imperialism over the last couple decades, they'd be fools not to.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    I hear ya man, I just really don't see the comparisons on this being drawn between Putin, Hitler, Stalin, etc. it's not as though Putin just decided to start marching west. He is responding to a border country in crisis, a crisis of US and perhaps EU making. At this point, I see little about Putin's actions troubling and quite understandable.
    Again, I hope you are right. And indeed that seems most likely.

    However, as the historical examples are showing, sometimes we're dealing with leaderships that think in terms of "everything or nothing". That happens. Is Putin such a person? No idea.

    However, what I read about that "geostrategic game" about Eurasia, or at least the Russian perception of that alleged game, makes me think at least some people in the Russian elite actually believe it's either using any chance they get to break free once and for all, or the end of the Russian people. In that case, it doesn't matter whether the West is actually playing that "game", or if the crucial Russian officials just believe we are.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Does Putin spend 50% of his defense budget to VA bennies and pensions as we do,
    since you're all admiring Putin's lean mean fighting machine .
    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Thats not what I asked, I asked if they were justified in your "view", and I use that term loosely.

    In the mean time, Russia is expanding its military spending by 40%.
    Putin has transformed Russian army into a lean, mean fighting machine - Washington Times
    Physics is Phun

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    re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    No, of course not. The present Ukrainian government is illegitimate. And of course Russia's military expenditures are up as is China's, and so should other countries watching US belligerence and imperialism over the last couple decades, they'd be fools not to.
    Thanks.

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    re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBY View Post
    Does Putin spend 50% of his defense budget to VA bennies and pensions as we do,
    since you're all admiring Putin's lean mean fighting machine .
    Im not admiring anything.

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    re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    I agree. But I doubt that a hasty referendum at the gunpoint of Russian soldiers who don't allow any independent international observers in has much value.

    The ideal solution for the problem would be if Russia and Kiev agreed to let an international force into Crimea, while the Russians troops withdraw, and this international force then organizes a referendum both sides agree to respect.

    But as it looks at the moment, Putin doesn't seem interested in such a solution.
    I agree with your ideal solution, and a referendum should be conducted under neutral circumstances and under the supervision of international observers. But unfortunately, secessions seldom occur under such ideal and neutral circumstances. (Such a referendum in 1776 might well have seen the American colonies remain under the British Crown.)

    And it must be remembered that the majority population in Crimea is ethnic Russian, so the motivation for secession did not come with the entry of Russian troops. It is a matter of self-determination, but I doubt the new, perhaps illegitimate, Ukrainian government will support it upon that basis.

    Apart from my belief in the principle of self-determination, I do not know enough of the situation to take a firm stand on either rampart. But I find this information troubling -

    Listening to the US media, even the most diligent news junkie would find it difficult to know that the U.S. State Department played not only a vital role in the violence and chaos underway in Ukraine but was also complicit in creating the coup that ousted democratically elected President Viktor Yanuyovch. Given the Russian Parliament’s approval of Putin’s request for military troops to be moved into Crimea, Americans uninformed about the history of that region might also be persuaded that Russia is the aggressor and the sole perpetrator of the violence.

    Let’s be clear about what is at stake here: NATO missiles on the adjacent Ukraine border aimed directly at Russia would make that country extremely vulnerable to Western goals and destabilization efforts while threatening Russia’s only water access to its naval fleet in Crimean peninsula, the Balkans, the Mediterranean Sea and the Middle East – and not the least of which would allow world economic dominance by the US, the European Union, the IMF, World Bank and international financiers all of whom had already brought staggering suffering to millions around the globe.

    The fact is that democracy was not a demand on the streets of Kiev. The current record of events indicates that protests of civil dissatisfaction were organized by reactionary neo-Nazi forces intent on fomenting a major domestic crisis ousting Ukraine’s legitimate government. As events continue to spiral out of control, here is the chronology of how the coup was engineered to install a government more favorable to EU and US goals.
    Chronology of the Ukrainian Coup » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

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    re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    I agree with your ideal solution, and a referendum should be conducted under neutral circumstances and under the supervision of international observers. But unfortunately, secessions seldom occur under such ideal and neutral circumstances. (Such a referendum in 1776 might well have seen the American colonies remain under the British Crown.)

    And it must be remembered that the majority population in Crimea is ethnic Russian, so the motivation for secession did not come with the entry of Russian troops. It is a matter of self-determination, but I doubt the new, perhaps illegitimate, Ukrainian government will support it upon that basis.

    Apart from my belief in the principle of self-determination, I do not know enough of the situation to take a firm stand on either rampart. But I find this information troubling -


    Chronology of the Ukrainian Coup » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names
    The US backed overthrow of the Ukrainian government, wasn't conducted under neutral circumstances, can't understand why anyone would expect it with this.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    The US backed overthrow of the Ukrainian government, wasn't conducted under neutral circumstances, can't understand why anyone would expect it with this.
    So you do or don't believe nations can decide which sides inside a nation they can support or not?

    I just...I wonder how it is that you consistently come to decide that what the US does is "bad". It's so...hilarious?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    So you do or don't believe nations can decide which sides inside a nation they can support or not?

    I just...I wonder how it is that you consistently come to decide that what the US does is "bad". It's so...hilarious?
    Ask him about Pearl Harbor. Its always America's fault.

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    re: For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Ask him about Pearl Harbor. Its always America's fault.
    Oh, I've seen that. It's awesome!

    "Pearl Harbor? The US forced Japan to act in that way, it's the US' fault!"

    but then...

    "Nagasaki and Hiroshima? The US was wrong to attack!"

    Of course, if you're going to make one argument, you could easily make the converse, too...he just never manages to make them. It's always the US being the devil in Monte's religion.

    Seriously, I highly doubt Monte is paid because...no one would pay for that. Truly, if he was being paid, it probably would be the US IC, because reading his posts actually makes criticism of the US- which of course can be just as legit as the criticism of any country- look absolutely retarded. But then...even for disinfo he'd be too dumb and heavy-handed.

    I'm forced to conclude Monte is just an actual real person. Well, just like a real person but...slower.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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