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Thread: Massachusetts court says 'upskirt' photos are legal

  1. #21
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    Re: Massachusetts court says 'upskirt' photos are legal

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    The trouble is that motivation is always difficult to prove. I'm sure his lawyer argued that a reasonable person would expect that the vast majority of women in skirts are wearing underwear. Kinda like with hate crime laws, short of a statement coming from the perp revealing exactly that motivation it is pretty much impossible to prove.
    But he was obviously trying to take a picture of something private. And the point is that he couldn't know whether that would be nude or not. Had he gotten a nude photo by accident, there would have been no question about whether he was guilty here or not (from the judge's wording). It is like setting up a camera in a restroom. There is no guarantee that the camera would ever pick up a photo of nudity, however, setting up a camera to take photos in a bathroom would still be charged under this law (in all likelihood) because there is always that chance and any reasonable person can see that chance there.
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    Re: Massachusetts court says 'upskirt' photos are legal

    Quote Originally Posted by rhinefire View Post
    So this means a guy sees a woman sitting down he can now lie down on the floor and stair at her legs waiting for her to cross them. Next, he can walk up behind her and look over her shoulder down on her cleavage. Yes my fellow Americans we are truly moving forward much like the pyramids in Egypt.
    I think the court's ruling was ridiculous. If one is 18 or older, I think they've committed a crime. Disorderly Conduct -- the same charge a Peeping Tom would face.

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    Re: Massachusetts court says 'upskirt' photos are legal

    Well then. Since it's so legal and all, ladies feel free to post your best upskirt photo. LOL

    I am reminded of a pictorial book called,"Under the Bleachers. Photos by Seymour Hiney."

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    Re: Massachusetts court says 'upskirt' photos are legal

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    But he was obviously trying to take a picture of something private. And the point is that he couldn't know whether that would be nude or not. Had he gotten a nude photo by accident, there would have been no question about whether he was guilty here or not (from the judge's wording). It is like setting up a camera in a restroom. There is no guarantee that the camera would ever pick up a photo of nudity, however, setting up a camera to take photos in a bathroom would still be charged under this law (in all likelihood) because there is always that chance and any reasonable person can see that chance there.
    "Private" is not a term that is found in this law, so that's irrelevant.

    Yes, he could have gotten a nude picture. But he didn't, and you can't prove his intent was to do that. The bathroom is not a good comparison, a reasonable person expects that underwear is removed in the bathroom, not at the checkout counter.

    Yes, there's a chance. But any photo ever taken always has a chance that it accidentally catches a nip slip.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Massachusetts court says 'upskirt' photos are legal

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I think the court's ruling was ridiculous. If one is 18 or older, I think they've committed a crime. Disorderly Conduct -- the same charge a Peeping Tom would face.
    That is not how disorderly conduct is defined, no. At least not in Mass.

    A general guideline is not to assume you know more about the law than the judge does, or the prosecutor. If you think the judge is wrong, find documentation to back yourself up.

    Instead of, you know, declaring the judge's ruling "ridiculous" based on a separate charge that doesn't even remotely apply here.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Massachusetts court says 'upskirt' photos are legal

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    That is not how disorderly conduct is defined, no. At least not in Mass.

    A general guideline is not to assume you know more about the law than the judge does, or the prosecutor. If you think the judge is wrong, find documentation to back yourself up.

    Instead of, you know, declaring the judge's ruling "ridiculous" based on a separate charge that doesn't even remotely apply here.
    His ruling is ridiculous. I don't know what charge should be levied against a grown man who's peeping under ladies' skirts and photographing what he finds. But that doesn't mean I can't rightly believe his ruling that it's NOT against the law as being ridiculous.

    And perhaps you should keep your own counsel:

    Under Massachusetts’s laws, it is a crime to be a “disorderly person.” People are disorderly if they engage in fighting, threats, or violent or excessively noisy behavior, or create dangerous or offensive conditions without good reason, and in order to inconvenience, annoy, or alarm others. (Commonwealth v. Sinai, 714 N.E.2d 830, 47 Mass. App. Ct. 544 (1999).) For example, people who get into bar fights or leave garbage and human waste in public parks could be arrested for disorderly conduct.

    It is also a crime to:

    be a prostitute
    keep a house of prostitution
    accost or annoy another with offensive and disorderly acts or language
    engage in lewd speech or behavior in public, or
    commit indecent exposure.
    I'd call taking an unskirt photograph as being annoying and offensive.

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    Re: Massachusetts court says 'upskirt' photos are legal

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    His ruling is ridiculous. I don't know what charge should be levied against a grown man who's peeping under ladies' skirts and photographing what he finds. But that doesn't mean I can't rightly believe his ruling that it's NOT against the law as being ridiculous.

    And perhaps you should keep your own counsel:



    I'd call taking an unskirt photograph as being annoying and offensive.


    http://www.mass.gov/courts/courtsand...ly-conduct.pdf

    It prohibits four
    separate and distinct acts: It fo
    rbids conduct that involves the
    use of force or violence. It also prohibits making threats that
    involve the immediate use of force or violence. It forbids
    tumultuous and highly agitated behavior, which may not involve
    physical violence, but which causes riotous commotion and
    excessively unreasonable noise, and so constitutes a public
    nuisance. Finally, the law prohibits any conduct that creates a
    hazard to public safety or a physically offensive condition by an
    act that serves no legitimate purpose of the defendant’s
    Last edited by Deuce; 03-09-14 at 01:23 PM.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Massachusetts court says 'upskirt' photos are legal

    And even if disorderly conduct applied, the Mass. Supreme Court can't just add charges to a case they're reviewing. The guy wasn't charged with disorderly conduct. Period. The judge's ruling was absolutely correct.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Massachusetts court says 'upskirt' photos are legal

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    "Private" is not a term that is found in this law, so that's irrelevant.

    Yes, he could have gotten a nude picture. But he didn't, and you can't prove his intent was to do that. The bathroom is not a good comparison, a reasonable person expects that underwear is removed in the bathroom, not at the checkout counter.

    Yes, there's a chance. But any photo ever taken always has a chance that it accidentally catches a nip slip.
    Intent only has to be proven when it comes to someone attempting something from a reasonable person standpoint.

    attempt legal definition of attempt. attempt synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

    From a reasonable person standpoint, could taking pictures of a woman purposely under her skirt, a place that is normally covered enough to not be in view of the public, have resulted in a photograph of a naked part of the body? The answer is "yes".
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    Re: Massachusetts court says 'upskirt' photos are legal

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Intent only has to be proven when it comes to someone attempting something from a reasonable person standpoint.

    attempt legal definition of attempt. attempt synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

    From a reasonable person standpoint, could taking pictures of a woman purposely under her skirt, a place that is normally covered enough to not be in view of the public, have resulted in a photograph of a naked part of the body? The answer is "yes".
    And a reasonable person would say any particular picture has a chance to do the same.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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