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Thread: US prepares $1B aid package for troubled Ukraine.....

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    Re: US prepares $1B aid package for troubled Ukraine.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Can't we just leave Kerry there for a few weeks and save the billion $? I don't get the need to throw money at Ukraine at this time.
    This is a good idea. Tell them Kerry won't leave until they come to some peaceful conclusion. Of course, we Americans are against cruel and unusual punishment.

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    Re: US prepares $1B aid package for troubled Ukraine.....

    The $1 Billion in aid is symbolic. That's it. It will do almost nothing to actually stabilize Ukraine's economy or anything else. This is a European problem to be handled by European powers. The U.S. should not be in the middle of this. There is nothing we can or should do militarily. And we should not engage even in serious saber rattling. Sending CAG's and subs near that region does nothing for anyone because we aren't going to use them nor should we. It makes us look like blowhards. Putin knows this, everyone knows this. Russia has a national security stake in the Crimea, we do not. They have had a military presence on the peninsula since Catherine the Great. Nothing Russia has done in the Crimea changes our national security situation. It seems that many (if not most) Crimean citizens do not want to be a part of Ukraine and are more closely aligned with Russia anyway. My point is that there is no need for U.S. involvement there, it isn't wanted and it is warranted.

    Ukraine is incredibly important to Russia in terms of their energy export business because of the pipeline network. It's not surprising that they are going to send strong signals to Kiev to cease their move towards the EU and abandon any idea that they have about joining NATO. The U.S. has flexed it's muscle for decades to influence economic situations. The EU is very slow to engage in economic sanctions because they need Russian energy trade. NATO isn't economically or militarily ready to take on Russia (although in a conventional war they would do quite well against the Red Army). But they don't even want to consider that. Why? The Crimea isn't worth it. Not to anyone but Russia. Trade sanctions by the U.S. would be toothless and accomplish little to nothing realistically. I don't blame the EU for not wanting to engage so aggressively.

    This isn't the 1930's. This isn't the 1950's or 60's. Russia isn't rolling westward towards Paris. They aren't engaging in ethnic cleansing. And they aren't bombing and destroying Ukrainian infrastructure or killing anyone. They have put about 15-20.000 troops on the peninsula (which by the way they can have up to 25,000 based upon their treaty with Ukraine). You have Ukrainian troops switching sides, civilians in the streets supporting Russian troops on the ground It's just not quite living up to the fear mongering and "oh no WW3 is here Russia is evil" rhetoric. The U.S. has done for more shocking things for far less justification and we do all kinds of acrobatics in order to make it look legitimate. Certainly what Moscow did was provocative, it was wrong, and it was against the treaty they signed regarding the Ukraine sovereignty. But...it doesn't actually amount to "destabilizing" Europe as the U.S. media seems to keep regurgitating.

    Let them sort it out. Any U.S. intervention would do nothing but inflame and prolong the situation. And that has nothing to do with Obama. We simply aren't needed there. EU forces aren't shooting Russians over this, Ukrainian forces aren't shooting Russians over this. Why would we even be considering this (meaning hawks in D.C. who are clamoring that we need to flex our military and not look so weak)?
    Last edited by Lerxst; 03-04-14 at 11:25 AM.
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    Re: US prepares $1B aid package for troubled Ukraine.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Why do you care what Soros has to say? And why should I?
    Because he is one of those "one-world governmenters" behind the curtain working to bring us down to the level of the poorer countries in the world. Bankruptcy will do that. When Russia and China and other large countries are working to replace the dollar as the world's reserve currency, we are the ONLY ones hurt. Call me nuts, but that is what I think.

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    Re: US prepares $1B aid package for troubled Ukraine.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Texmex View Post
    This is a good idea. Tell them Kerry won't leave until they come to some peaceful conclusion. Of course, we Americans are against cruel and unusual punishment.
    : We might be willing to make an exception in this case..

    Well, I'm off to work. Have to make enough to help the Ukraine too. Have a good day.

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    Re: US prepares $1B aid package for troubled Ukraine.....

    I must admit that I have not read all of the posts in this thread, but I have to ask. Chances are good that Putin will control the Ukraine when this is over. Whether or not it will lead to bloodshed is yet to be seen. IF he does take control of this region and I believe he will, what happens to that billion we just loaned the Ukraine? Are we willing to just write it off? I don't want to sound as if the money is all that matters, but we could really use that money here and I am not sure we have it to spare.

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    Re: US prepares $1B aid package for troubled Ukraine.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt Racer View Post
    I must admit that I have not read all of the posts in this thread, but I have to ask. Chances are good that Putin will control the Ukraine when this is over. Whether or not it will lead to bloodshed is yet to be seen. IF he does take control of this region and I believe he will, what happens to that billion we just loaned the Ukraine? Are we willing to just write it off? I don't want to sound as if the money is all that matters, but we could really use that money here and I am not sure we have it to spare.

    Thats ridiculous. Putin will quite possibly take a little chunk of the Ukraine, Crimea, and turn it into a reliable Russian puppet, which it kinda is already, really.

    But he's almost certainly lost an entire nation on his own border that will now be more than willing to ally even closer with the West. Ukraine has a pretty strong desire to be independent, and was leaning toward the West. Now it will be fleeing toward the west.


    Its paradoxical, but Putin is showing profound weakness with this show of force, and will lose much, much more than he's gained.. which is pretty minimal.

    Heres a nice analysis:

    How Putin's Ukraine Invasion Is a Disaster for Russia | TIME.com
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

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    Re: US prepares $1B aid package for troubled Ukraine.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    The $1 Billion in aid is symbolic. That's it. It will do almost nothing to actually stabilize Ukraine's economy or anything else. This is a European problem to be handled by European powers. The U.S. should not be in the middle of this. There is nothing we can or should do militarily. And we should not engage even in serious saber rattling. Sending CAG's and subs near that region does nothing for anyone because we aren't going to use them nor should we. It makes us look like blowhards. Putin knows this, everyone knows this. Russia has a national security stake in the Crimea, we do not. They have had a military presence on the peninsula since Catherine the Great. Nothing Russia has done in the Crimea changes our national security situation. It seems that many (if not most) Crimean citizens do not want to be a part of Ukraine and are more closely aligned with Russia anyway. My point is that there is no need for U.S. involvement there, it isn't wanted and it is warranted.

    Ukraine is incredibly important to Russia in terms of their energy export business because of the pipeline network. It's not surprising that they are going to send strong signals to Kiev to cease their move towards the EU and abandon any idea that they have about joining NATO. The U.S. has flexed it's muscle for decades to influence economic situations. The EU is very slow to engage in economic sanctions because they need Russian energy trade. NATO isn't economically or militarily ready to take on Russia (although in a conventional war they would do quite well against the Red Army). But they don't even want to consider that. Why? The Crimea isn't worth it. Not to anyone but Russia. Trade sanctions by the U.S. would be toothless and accomplish little to nothing realistically. I don't blame the EU for not wanting to engage so aggressively.

    This isn't the 1930's. This isn't the 1950's or 60's. Russia isn't rolling westward towards Paris. They aren't engaging in ethnic cleansing. And they aren't bombing and destroying Ukrainian infrastructure or killing anyone. They have put about 15-20.000 troops on the peninsula (which by the way they can have up to 25,000 based upon their treaty with Ukraine). You have Ukrainian troops switching sides, civilians in the streets supporting Russian troops on the ground It's just not quite living up to the fear mongering and "oh no WW3 is here Russia is evil" rhetoric. The U.S. has done for more shocking things for far less justification and we do all kinds of acrobatics in order to make it look legitimate. Certainly what Moscow did was provocative, it was wrong, and it was against the treaty they signed regarding the Ukraine sovereignty. But...it doesn't actually amount to "destabilizing" Europe as the U.S. media seems to keep regurgitating.

    Let them sort it out. Any U.S. intervention would do nothing but inflame and prolong the situation. And that has nothing to do with Obama. We simply aren't needed there. EU forces aren't shooting Russians over this, Ukrainian forces aren't shooting Russians over this. Why would we even be considering this (meaning hawks in D.C. who are clamoring that we need to flex our military and not look so weak)?

    Mornin Lerxst. Indeed.....an excellent post.



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    Re: US prepares $1B aid package for troubled Ukraine.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    U mean like this?
    EU tells Russia to withdraw troops or face possible sanctions | Reuters
    Or this:
    EUobserver / Ukraine crisis: EU threatens asset freeze on Russian officials


    In 2 days time there is a EU meeting to determine the sanctions but for now the threats are real... though it may seem that the UK will pussy out. Anyway... it's not like they want to be part of the EU to begin with.

    Talk may be cheap, but it's better than war. The US has only done talk too. Everyone talks so that guns don't start firing. Talk is good.
    Yes they moved into action two days ago. Big whoop. They should have been warning/sanction Putin clear back in November when the big protests started in the Ukraine. Everyone knew that Viktor Yanukovych was a Putin puppet. He was known as Russia's man. His 2004 election was a fraud. But then he seemed to be earnestly seeking the agreement with the EU which angered Putin. And when Yanukovych backed down from the EU agreement it was obvious his decision was being "influenced" by Putin who is still angry over losing the Ukraine in the 90's. The EU could have done more sooner rather than later. They, just like Obama, show their weakness and gives despots like Putin the green light. Things like sanctions do not equate to gunfire.
    There was a little blurp in the news yesterday that Yanukovych who fled to Russia is dead of a heart attack according to reporting in the Ukraine papers. Hmmmm, the first thought I had when reading that one is Russia has a history of ending the lives of once useful idiots who become useless. Just a thought.....
    Yanukovych is Dead? | Armstrong Economics

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    Re: US prepares $1B aid package for troubled Ukraine.....

    Heres a very good post I read on Andrew Sulllivans blog, discussing how the neo cons like McCain want to rattle sabers and consider military intervention, but they dont recognize the profound damage that Putin is doing to himself and to Russia by putting on this display.

    Really excellent read.

    You and I were watching McCain at the same time and thinking essentially the same thing. McCain, Graham, Bolton and others of that ilk, watch the events in Ukraine and are filled with Putin-envy. Vladimir Putin is a master of the game, they seem to think. Look at his almost effortless projection of force, his willingness to dispatch troops and threaten war with so little hesitation or circumspection. They love it! If only we had our own Putin at the helm!

    But how pathetic and short-sighted is this vision? In fact, Putin is stirred to move because he feels humiliated. His puppet was ousted from power by a popular uprising. His plans to seal Ukraine to Russia for another generation are evaporating. His hold on a plausible plurality of the Ukrainian people was shattered. The fuel deals are clearly seen as a crude power-play by most Ukrainians. Even the Russian-speaking Ukrainians of the eastern and southern provinces are slipping out of Moscow’s grasp. There, when we look more deeply into the demographics, we see that even if the 50+ers feel nostalgia for Moscow and support for the Kremlin, the generation of 35-down increasingly sees more promise from an alignment with Europe. The pro-Russian regions of Ukraine will predictably cease to be pro-Russian within a generation.

    Putin, the crass intelligence officer, turns quickly to brute force. But what is the cost to him of this step? Not only in Ukraine, but in all the other states of the “near abroad,” the fear of Russia is moved up several notches, the image of Russia as a reptilian predator rises. Even within Russia, most citizens understand the shrill propaganda of ORT (the Russian state TV) for what it is and consider war with Ukraine to be irresponsible nonsense. Putin’s credibility as a leader fades. Increasingly he appears to be someone motivated by fear of loss and failure, not by greatness.

    The Putin who shows his face to the world today is not some dynamic new Napoleon delivering a new master stroke. He is a tired, failed leader, who is steadily losing the confidence of his own people, who is seen as hopelessly corrupt, and who is being deserted by Russian elites and detested by the youth in particular. Putin is a spent force. He may hang on for another year or another decade, but in Russia the demand for a new leader will grow steadily from this point.

    The McCains, Grahams and Boltons don’t understand this dynamic, and that’s frankly because they are too much like Putin. The worst imaginable thing would be for the leaders of the West to think and behave like Putin.

    That would lay the ground for a cold war or even a major new land war in Europe – at a time when this is utterly unnecessary. There are powerful historical forces at play that will achieve what needs to be achieved. Putin is on the wrong side of them. His position is hopeless.

    The events unfolding in Ukraine, in Crimea and Moscow are very significant, and perhaps the weightiest developments since the collapse of the Berlin Wall. On the other hand, what we see transpiring in Washington, among its pundits and papers like WaPo and WSJ, fully exposes the bankruptcy of the American chattering classes, and particularly of the world inside the Beltway. They are beholden to a great military machine which seeks conflict where it can find it, and their appreciation of the forces driving the world are laughably simplistic. At this point I thank god for Barack Obama, and even more, for Angela Merkel and other European leaders who have drawn the reasonable lessons of America’s Iraq debacle – even as Americans seem unwilling to think about it.
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

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    Re: US prepares $1B aid package for troubled Ukraine.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    Thats ridiculous. Putin will quite possibly take a little chunk of the Ukraine, Crimea, and turn it into a reliable Russian puppet, which it kinda is already, really.

    But he's almost certainly lost an entire nation on his own border that will now be more than willing to ally even closer with the West. Ukraine has a pretty strong desire to be independent, and was leaning toward the West. Now it will be fleeing toward the west.


    Its paradoxical, but Putin is showing profound weakness with this show of force, and will lose much, much more than he's gained.. which is pretty minimal.

    Heres a nice analysis:

    How Putin's Ukraine Invasion Is a Disaster for Russia | TIME.com
    I read the piece and have to say that I am surprised to hear how high the numbers are that reject this action. Although early, the amount of protest is somewhat small which makes me think they are waiting to see what happens next. I can get behind that. My question is even if this escalates and Putin moves forward with a full scale invasion, what do the protesters plan to accomplish? The article eludes to a revolt against Putin. I have a hard time believing that would work out, but again I don't pretend to know the inner workings of Russia or it's people.

    I am a little behind in this conflict so be patient while I try to get up to speed. At this point all I know is this is affecting energy rates and I am trying to get a grasp on how it will effect my clients long term.

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