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Thread: Obama warns US will 'isolate' Russia if Putin doesn't pull back in Ukraine

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    Re: Obama warns US will 'isolate' Russia if Putin doesn't pull back in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Why do people keep repeating this bull ****. We have no such treaty to protect the Ukraine. But besides that, why would you want to risk war with Russia for a country you couldn't even pick out on a map. Why don't you write a check, then put on a uniform and go defend it.
    Yes, we do have...two specifically. One in 1994 as part of the effort to de-nuke them, and as a member of the UN. Again, we're back to your amateurish understanding of the situation.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

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    Re: Obama warns US will 'isolate' Russia if Putin doesn't pull back in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Do you have a link to the treaty you are referencing?

    Edit: It's not in START I or START II, nor the Lisbon Protocol, nor the 1975 Helsinki Final Act
    Budapest Memorandums on Security Assurances, 1994 - Council on Foreign Relations
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

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    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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    Re: Obama warns US will 'isolate' Russia if Putin doesn't pull back in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Ask Kennedy, ask Reagan.

    Anyways, I suppose you'd have us renege on our alliances?
    1) Being out to screw the soviets was a different ball game. We were in a Cold War and everyone knew it. It is hardly that simple now.

    2) Our actions DURING the Cold War as interventionist did us no good in the "hearts and minds" arena anyway.

    3) Can you please give me a link to this treaty?

    4) Would you have us risk war with Russia? Even economic war? Do you seriously think the Ukraine is worth it?

    As I stated before...treaties are worthless. If Russia wants to invade the Ukraine with all their conventional forces they will. We won't do anything. Do you know what an ICBM is? That is why. It isn't just about MAD anymore. It also gives a nation the freedom to operate with impunity as long as it isn't invading a nuclear capable nation.
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    Re: Obama warns US will 'isolate' Russia if Putin doesn't pull back in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    1) Being out to screw the soviets was a different ball game. We were in a Cold War and everyone knew it. It is hardly that simple now.
    Russia, under Putin, has clearly displayed the same intentions that put as at odds with the Soviet Union. The ball game is no more different than softball is from baseball.

    2) Our actions DURING the Cold War as interventionist did us no good in the "hearts and minds" arena anyway.
    Not entirely accurate. No good in some, much good in others.

    3) Can you please give me a link to this treaty?
    Did. A treaty that we, and Russia, are a party too. One which Russia has violated and we have failed to act on.

    4) Would you have us risk war with Russia? Even economic war? Do you seriously think the Ukraine is worth it?
    Putin is clearly not concerned with the risk of war, and if left un-checked by the supposed world super power, do you really think he'll stop with the Crimea?

    As I stated before...treaties are worthless. If Russia wants to invade the Ukraine with all their conventional forces they will. We won't do anything. Do you know what an ICBM is? That is why. It isn't just about MAD anymore. It also gives a nation the freedom to operate with impunity as long as it isn't invading a nuclear capable nation.
    Treaties are certainly worthless under this administration, I'll agree to that.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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    Re: Obama warns US will 'isolate' Russia if Putin doesn't pull back in Ukraine

    Ok so a few things to take into account. First, this is not a treaty, it's a UN Security Council Memorandum in connection with the treaty. It's not part of the treaty.

    Quote Originally Posted by General Assembly, Fourty Ninth Session, A/49/765* S/1994/1399*
    Upon instructions from our Governments, we have the honour to transmit herewith the text of the Memorandum on Security Assurances in Connection with Ukraine’s Accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, signed on 5 December 1994 by the Presidents of Ukraine, the Russian Federation and the United States of America, and the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (annex I), and the text of the Joint Declaration issued on 5 December 1994 by the leaders of our States (annex II)

    Actual UN Document Link


    The only place the memorandum states the US is bound to defend the Ukraine is at the UN.

    Quote Originally Posted by General Assembly, Fourty Ninth Session, A/49/765* S/1994/1399*

    4. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used;
    In that, I agree we have not upheld the spirit of that memorandum, and should as one of the UN Security Council's main members, petition the UN for assistance to Ukraine once they have been "a victim of an act of aggression..."
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Obama warns US will 'isolate' Russia if Putin doesn't pull back in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Ok so a few things to take into account. First, this is not a treaty, it's a UN Security Council Memorandum in connection with the treaty. It's not part of the treaty.
    It's an agreement between nations in which we pledged certain actions. Whether that is a "treaty" or not is irrlevant. The end result of this "other than a treaty" was that the Ukraine upheld it's end of the bargain and disarmed the worlds third largest (at the time) nuclear weapons stockpile.


    Actual UN Document Link


    The only place the memorandum states the US is bound to defend the Ukraine is at the UN.



    In that, I agree we have not upheld the spirit of that memorandum, and should as one of the UN Security Council's main members, petition the UN for assistance to Ukraine once they have been "a victim of an act of aggression..."
    How many places, and times, need it be stated?

    And by the way, violation of territory, in keeping with the terms of memorandum, is all that is necessary. They need not be "a victim of an act of aggression".
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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    Re: Obama warns US will 'isolate' Russia if Putin doesn't pull back in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    It's an agreement between nations in which we pledged certain actions. Whether that is a "treaty" or not is irrlevant. The end result of this "other than a treaty" was that the Ukraine upheld it's end of the bargain and disarmed the worlds third largest (at the time) nuclear weapons stockpile.
    You yourself identified by saying "We are treaty bound to defend the Ukraine" - that's false, so it is relevant to the prior statement you made. It is an agreement and a pledge... but we're not duty bound to an agreement or a pledge, at least not duty bound by international law or US Law. The Ukraine did in good faith uphold their end of the bargain that is true. However, the agreement and the pledge through the UN Security Council specifically states the nature of action and when that action should take place.

    At this point, the Ukraine has not IMO, "become a victim of an act of aggression". I would hope the US does fulfill our pledge if / when that occurs.


    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    How many places, and times, need it be stated?
    It only needs to be stated once but accurately. The agreement made was not part of a treaty, it does not specify US involvement beyond UN Security Council petitions for aid, and should not occur until the Ukraine is a victim of aggression.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Obama warns US will 'isolate' Russia if Putin doesn't pull back in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    You yourself identified by saying "We are treaty bound to defend the Ukraine" - that's false, so it is relevant to the prior statement you made. It is an agreement and a pledge... but we're not duty bound to an agreement or a pledge, at least not duty bound by international law or US Law. The Ukraine did in good faith uphold their end of the bargain that is true. However, the agreement and the pledge through the UN Security Council specifically states the nature of action and when that action should take place.
    Perhaps an overstatement, but nevertheless I feel we are obliged to fulfill our agreements.

    At this point, the Ukraine has not IMO, "become a victim of an act of aggression". I would hope the US does fulfill our pledge if / when that occurs.
    Again, in keeping with the Memorandum, this is not required. Russia has clearly violated Ukraine's territorial sovereignty, and this is all that is necessary under the agreement.

    It only needs to be stated once but accurately. The agreement made was not part of a treaty, it does not specify US involvement beyond UN Security Council petitions for aid, and should not occur until the Ukraine is a victim of aggression.
    The Ukraine has been invaded...that's enough. Further, beyond the Budapest memorandum, Ukraine is a UN member nation, and this constitutes the first instance of a UN member nation invading another UN member nation. Both democracies. Allowing this to go unchecked will not only completely eliminate the credibility of the US and the UN it will embolden Putin to continue his expansion.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
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    Re: Obama warns US will 'isolate' Russia if Putin doesn't pull back in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Perhaps an overstatement, but nevertheless I feel we are obliged to fulfill our agreements.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Again, in keeping with the Memorandum, this is not required. Russia has clearly violated Ukraine's territorial sovereignty, and this is all that is necessary under the agreement.
    It's not so black and white as Crimea requested Russian forces. Putin created that loophole I'm sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    The Ukraine has been invaded...that's enough. Further, beyond the Budapest memorandum, Ukraine is a UN member nation, and this constitutes the first instance of a UN member nation invading another UN member nation. Both democracies. Allowing this to go unchecked will not only completely eliminate the credibility of the US and the UN it will embolden Putin to continue his expansion.
    I tend to agree, though again Crimea's invitation gives argument to the claim of invasion. I'm wondering why the State Dept. and WH aren't petitioning the UN per the agreement, or maybe they are waiting for a clearer aggression into Ukraine itself. I'm sure they are fully aware of the agreement - or perhaps they don't see the UN Security Council as an option since Russia is also part of the agreement and are the one's doing the aggression.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Obama warns US will 'isolate' Russia if Putin doesn't pull back in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Agreed.

    It's not so black and white as Crimea requested Russian forces. Putin created that loophole I'm sure.
    Crimea did not have the authority under it's constitution to do so, nor did Crimea as a whole do so.

    I tend to agree, though again Crimea's invitation gives argument to the claim of invasion. I'm wondering why the State Dept. and WH aren't petitioning the UN per the agreement, or maybe they are waiting for a clearer aggression into Ukraine itself. I'm sure they are fully aware of the agreement - or perhaps they don't see the UN Security Council as an option since Russia is also part of the agreement and are the one's doing the aggression.
    Again, Crimea asking for Russian assistance is no different than Texas asking for Mexican assistance. It simply did not have the constitutional authority to make such a request.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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