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Kerry condemns Russia's 'incredible act of aggression' in Ukraine

Its Bush's fault.

No but this was.... apparently GW's "Grave Concern" gave Putin the wrong message. Why else would he have though he could get away with it? He should have yelled "bring it on" and nuked his ass. We would all probably be dead but at least he would have showed some balls.

Georgian officials tonight claimed the country had been 'overrun' by Russian troops after a full-scale ground invasion.
Amid reports that Moscow forces had taken the town of Gori - and were marching on the capital Tsblisi - Georgian soldiers appeared to be in full retreat.
Troops were apparently in complete chaos as a full-scale rout pushed them back through the countryside.
Meanwhile, the civilian crisis intensified with thousands of refugees fleeing the seemingly unstoppable advance of the Russian army.
Earlier in the day, Russian premier Vladimir Putin raised the stakes over the conflict by lashing out at the U.S. as the fighting continued to escalate in the region.
The Russian prime minister rejected calls from Georgia for a ceasefire and declared that his country would pursue its mission to its 'logical conclusion'.
A day after a face-to-face meeting with President George W. Bush in Beijing who expressed 'grave concern', Mr Putin accused the U.S. of siding with Georgia by ferrying Georgian troops from Iraq to the battle zone.

'It is a shame that some of our partners are not helping us but, essentially, are hindering us,' said Mr Putin. 'The very scale of this cynicism is astonishing.'

Read more: Georgia 'overrun' by Russian troops as full-scale ground invasion begins | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
 
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No but this was.... apparently GW's "Grave Concern" gave Putin the wrong message. Why else would he have though he could get away with it? He should have yelled "bring it on" and nuked his ass. We would all probably be dead but at least he would have showed some balls.



Read more: Georgia 'overrun' by Russian troops as full-scale ground invasion begins | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

I agree that the Georgian incursion was inexcusable, and likely emboldened Russia, I have linked to research and policy papers that say as much. Which begs the question-what will happen next, if the worlds bad actors see now response to this?
 
Precisely. That was the general consensus. Putin is a douchebag...and Obama makes him look like an effective world leader and statesman.

Ah yes, the "effective world leader" who is now internationally recognized as far more of a bully than he was before.

Obama is 20 times the leader Putin is. Putin rules through fear. Obama rules through (horribly ill-advised) compromise.

You warmongers sicken me.
 
Kerry is a joke and symbol of cowardice and incompetency.

Hey, he commanded a swift boat ya know? And and and he own a ketchup company.
 
Hey, he commanded a swift boat ya know? And and and he own a ketchup company.

But he has impeccable taste in shirt and tie.
 
The US should lead the opposition to this act of war (yes, invading a sovereign nation and its territorial integrity is considered an act of war) with economic and diplomatic sanctions against Russia. Get everyone on record with who they support, including the UN, EU, and Nato to investigate any situation threatening international peace; recommend procedures for peaceful resolution of a dispute; call upon other member nations to completely or partially interrupt economic relations as well as sea, air, postal, and radio communications, or to sever diplomatic relations; and enforce its decisions.

Let Russia come across as the brutish invaders and reap the repercussions, they are the ones who have sent militias across the border. Basically, the US needs to lead the world into making it more expensive (politically or otherwise) to stay in Ukraine. France, the UK, and the US will stand together, but how China responds will also be key.

The point here, is that one nation can not invade another,
and there are going to be those who do something about it-and those that dont. We are at a distinct disadvantage with a weak president who not only advertises his unwillingness to use force but also has squandered his political capital at home and abroad. An actual leader wouldn't even be in this mess=Obama's foreign policy has been appallingly bad.




Wrong, this has happened many times.

Didn't the USA invade Iraq in 2003 and aren't we still paying for this?
 
Hey, he commanded a swift boat ya know? And and and
he own a ketchup company.




Actually I think that it's his wife that owns the ketchup company, but that's pretty much the same thing.

I wonder if he uses it on hot dogs instead of mustard. Does anyone have any insight on that?
 
No but this was.... apparently GW's "Grave Concern" gave Putin the wrong message. Why else would he have though he could get away with it? He should have yelled "bring it on" and nuked his ass.
We would all probably be dead but at least he would have showed some balls.



Read more: Georgia 'overrun' by Russian troops as full-scale ground invasion begins | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook




And if we were all dead we probably wouldn't be Monday-morning quarterbacking the Ukrainian kerfuffle right now.

We might still be trying to negotiate our way into heaven.




From what I've read it looks like the Ukraine is going to have a problem finding enough uniforms for the troops that it's mobilizing, forget about arming them.




I predict that this will be a short war.
 
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Ah yes, the "effective world leader" who is now internationally recognized as far more of a bully than he was before.

Obama is 20 times the leader Putin is. Putin rules through fear. Obama rules through (horribly ill-advised) compromise.

You warmongers sicken me.
Nah...what sickens you is the fact your guy looks so ****ing feeble and you have to defend him.
 
Russia has not invaded Ukraine. How can you invade a country where you already had 20+k troops, military bases and so on and there is an agreement for this?

And ultimately what can the west do.. nothing that is with in a sane world. Of course we could nuke em, but why end the world now when we are having so much fun destroying it?
 
Russia has not invaded Ukraine. How can you invade a country where you already had 20+k troops, military bases and so on and there is an agreement for this?

And ultimately what can the west do.. nothing that is with in a sane world. Of course we could nuke em, but why end the world now when we are having so much fun destroying it?
No...this is good though. The EU members should be able to see what EU membership really means and what happens to a country when its citizens want closer ties to the EU and when one man wants closer ties to the USSrrrrrrrrrrrRussia. Not only will the Russians help them get what they REALLY want, but others will applaud it and say why it is really just for the best.
 
Nah...what sickens you is the fact your guy looks so ****ing feeble and you have to defend him.

Ah, "my guy" that I didn't even vote for the last time he was up for election.

What sickens me is that the real wingnuts here seem like they're on Putin's side.
 
... guess he's going to invade them ... in his Swift Boat.
 
... guess he's going to invade them ... in his Swift Boat.

You mean the one he was actually on ... in Vietnam ... facing enemy fire ... as opposed to ... most people here have done?

It never ceases to amuse me how willing the conservatives who allegedly adore the military are so quick to denigrate the service of someone who doesn't slurp at the Republican tit.
 
Russia has not invaded Ukraine. How can you invade a country where you already had 20+k troops, military bases and so on and there is an agreement for this?
So you mean that thousands of Russian troops, tear off their insignias and pour out of their leased bases in Crimea and take over the government buildings and surround the small Ukrainian forces there was all part of a prior agreement between them? :shock:
 
No...this is good though. The EU members should be able to see what EU membership really means and what happens to a country when its citizens want closer ties to the EU and when one man wants closer ties to the USSrrrrrrrrrrrRussia. Not only will the Russians help them get what they REALLY want, but others will applaud it and say why it is really just for the best.

Ukraine aint a member of the EU......
 
Ah yes, the "effective world leader" who is now internationally recognized as far more of a bully than he was before.

Obama is 20 times the leader Putin is. Putin rules through fear. Obama rules through (horribly ill-advised) compromise.

You warmongers sicken me.

First, just so it is clear, I do not want war and opposed previously planned U.S. military intervention in Syria (lack of compelling U.S. interests).

Second, I do not support Russia's intervention in Ukraine. Had Ukraine moved in some fashion against Crimea's ethnic Russian population or against the Sevastopol naval base, that would be a different story. Then, Russia would have unambiguously legitimate grounds for acting.

even as some in the 21st century like to argue that notions such as the balance of power are 'quaint' obstructs of the past that lack relevance, the balance of power matters greatly in geopolitics. When critical interests are at stake and one has the power to safeguard those interests, such nations often will act to do so unless they are deterred. Mere warnings not to act dont' provide deterrence. Deterrence is effective when a nation has a capability of responding, will respond if the condition is met (other country acts in a fashion that one is trying to deter), and the other country knows that one has the ability and willingness to act.

As far as Russia's interests are concerned, the Sevastopol naval base is a strategic base. Crimea also has a majority ethnic Russian population. Therefore, Russia had tangible interests involved in that area that ran deeper than whether a pro-Russian leader was in office in Kiev.

The balance of power also is overwhelmingly on Russia's side. Ukraine is not a match whatsoever for Russia. At the same time, Russia is one of the world's great powers. It understood that there would be no practical military response to its intervention in Crimea.

In terms of deterrence, diplomatic warnings should be communicated privately. Doing so publicly, invites a chest-thumping test of strength and President Putin is widely known for detesting weakness and perceptions of weakness. The public TV remarks on what Russia should not do amounted to pouring oil on the proverbial fire. Had the U.S. had a credible enforcement mechanism to make the costs prohibitively high to Russia and willingness to do so, with Russian understanding of that reality, then deterrence would have been effective. However, there was no practical military response given the balance of power. Then, when it comes to non-military remedies, among Russia's major exports are crude oil and natural gas. Russia almost certainly calculated that there would be no boycott of such exports. First, Europe is a big consumer of Russia's natural gas (as is Ukraine). There is no practical way Europe can stop buying Russian natural gas without a large increase in global energy prices on account of its demand shifting elsewhere. Second, Russia has alternative export destinations for its crude oil and natural gas. Third, past precedent argued against such restrictions. After all, despite Iran's general lack of cooperation on the nuclear talks--some recent progress has been made but the results remain far from certain--no global embargo was slapped on Iran's oil exports. Russia is an even bigger energy producer and the price impact would be much greater than if Iran's oil were blocked from export. In the end, President Putin concluded that the costs imposed on Russia would be modest relative to the interests it would be securing. Hence, deterrence failed.
 
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So you mean that thousands of Russian troops, tear off their insignias and pour out of their leased bases in Crimea and take over the government buildings and surround the small Ukrainian forces there was all part of a prior agreement between them? :shock:

No, I am saying you cant "invade" a country if you already are there. And it has not been confirmed that they are Russian troops.. you seem to forget that over 90% of the population in the Crimea are Russian speaking and culturally Russian.
 
First, just so it is clear, I do not want war and opposed previously planned U.S. military intervention in Syria (lack of compelling U.S. interests).

Second, I do not support Russia's intervention in Ukraine. Had Ukraine moved in some fashion against Crimea's ethnic Russian population or against the Sevastopol naval base, that would be a different story. Then, Russia would have unambiguously legitimate grounds for acting.

even as some in the 21st century like to argue that notions such as the balance of power are 'quaint' obstructs of the past that lack relevance, the balance of power matters greatly in geopolitics. When critical interests are at stake and one has the power to safeguard those interests, such nations often will act to do so unless they are deterred. Mere warnings not to act dont' provide deterrence. Deterrence is effective when a nation has a capability of responding, will respond if the condition is met (other country acts in a fashion that one is trying to deter), and the other country knows that one has the ability and willingness to act.

As far as Russia's interests are concerned, the Sevastopol naval base is a strategic base. Crimea also has a majority ethnic Russian population. Therefore, Russia had tangible interests involved in that area that ran deeper than whether a pro-Russian leader was in office in Kiev.

The balance of power also is overwhelmingly on Russia's side. Ukraine is not a match whatsoever for Russia. At the same time, Russia is one of the world's great powers. It understood that there would be no practical military response to its intervention in Crimea.

In terms of deterrence, diplomatic warnings should be communicated privately. Doing so publicly, invites a chest-thumping test of strength and President Putin is widely known for detesting weakness and perceptions of weakness. The public TV remarks on what Russia should not do amounted to pooring oil on the proverbial fire. Had the U.S. had a credible enforcement mechanism to make the costs prohibitively high to Russia and willingness to do so, with Russian understanding of that reality, then deterrence would have been effective. However, there was no practical military response given the balance of power. Then, when it comes to non-military remedies, among Russia's major exports are crude oil and natural gas. Russia almost certainly calculated that there would be no boycott of such exports. First, Europe is a big consumer of Russia's natural gas (as is Ukraine). There is no practical way Europe can stop buying Russian natural gas without a large increase in global energy prices on account of its demand shifting elsewhere. Second, Russia has alternative export destinations for its crude oil and natural gas. Third, past precedent argued against such restrictions. After all, despite Iran's general lack of cooperation on the nuclear talks--some recent progress has been made but the results remain far from certain--no global embargo was slapped on Iran's oil exports. Russia is an even bigger energy producer and the price impact would be much greater than if Iran's oil were blocked from export. In the end, President Putin concluded that the costs imposed on Russia would be modest relative to the interests it would be securing. Hence, deterrence failed.

That actually is a well thought-out, interesting perspective. Let me sleep on it and I'll revisit it later. It's a welcome change from the usual hackery that goes on here.
 
No, I am saying you cant "invade" a country if you already are there.

If we spill out of Guantanamo, into Cuba, that's not an invasion, right?

And it has not been confirmed that they are Russian troops.. you seem to forget that over 90% of the population in the Crimea are Russian speaking and culturally Russian.

Crimea = Sudetenland?
 
Yes, Russia is using force to solve the issue, but what else it can do? They are desperate.
The Russians have been feeling betrayed by the West since the end of the cold war, when most Russians wanted to join the West, later only found that the Western politicians, instead of helping and encouraging reconciliation between the West and Russia and between former USSA members, still treat Russian as "No1 foe" and explore the differences between Russians and ethnic groups and incite "new revolutions" to further weaken Russia.
Russians never blame everything on the West, they know the long historical reasons for the conflict, but when any bias and unfairness from the West on Russia's national interest just remind them of Bosnia, Kosovo, Georgia....
Russians no longer trust the West, so this time they feel the urgency to use force to resolve the issue once for all.
 
I have said it before, the Crimea is a semi-autonomous state, technically part of the Ukraine, but also not really. Plus the Russian Black Sea fleet is stationed there and most people there are of Russian ethnicity.

Although it's a concern (especially for non-Russian's living there), I really don't see a big deal with Russia having troops there...they were there already anyway.

So long as they stay out of the rest of the Ukraine (unless they are officially invited), I don't see the big problem...especially for the West/EU.


I think Obama is a lousy POTUS (as I thought G.W. Bush was)...but I do not see him doing anything wrong on this matter so far.

He is basically just waiting and seeing while warning Russia to stay out of the Ukraine (which the Crimea, in essence, isn't) - okay so far.
 
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No, I am saying you cant "invade" a country if you already are there.
So what do you call taking over a region's government buildings with foreign troops then? A picnic? :confused:

PeteEU said:
And it has not been confirmed that they are Russian troops.. you seem to forget that over 90% of the population in the Crimea are Russian speaking and culturally Russian.

Funny cause every defense analyst says they are Russian troops, heck even the Russians themselves admit it. :doh

Russia admits that it has moved troops in Ukraine - Telegraph
 
Ukraine aint a member of the EU......
No...but their people were pressing to be. They ahd already charted a path and created economic ties and were working towards EU membership. Yanukovych chose to abandon the will of the people, cut ties to the EU, and move the Ukraine back to Russia. Thats what has triggered this whole mess. Or have you missed that?
 
Ah, "my guy" that I didn't even vote for the last time he was up for election.

What sickens me is that the real wingnuts here seem like they're on Putin's side.
:lamo Suuuuuure.

Yeah. You mad. And I dont blame you. It would suck having to defend that ridiculous ****ing circus clown in the WH.

Its not about being on Putins side...far from it. As has been expressed countless times...Putin is a douchebag. Obama makes him look like a rokstar.
 
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