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Thread: Kerry condemns Russia's 'incredible act of aggression' in Ukraine

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    Re: Kerry condemns Russia's 'incredible act of aggression' in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Actually it does not. If you followed this mornings news (at least here in Europe on multiple channels), then you would know that most news organisations are reporting that the reported threat came out of the Ukrainian Defence ministry and that the Russians have officially denied it. Both sides are now downplaying it.
    A detailed analysis might indicate that it is an absolute that the Ukrainian defense ministry would be the reporting body, as they would be the ones having received the threat to begin with. It would also make it rather obvious that the larger Russian military would deny such a thing being threatened by a commander on the front lines, as they have done before.

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    Re: Kerry condemns Russia's 'incredible act of aggression' in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    You don't believe those things about Saddam?

    Do you understand that the people (the nation) are sovereign, not a dictator. Dictators lose their right to speak for the people.

    There are no sovereign governments, only sovereign nations.
    There's no doubt that Saddam was an awful person, but the rationale of "Saddam treats his own people like crap" only came up after the "Saddam is a threat to the U.S." rationale turned out to be a pile of steaming cow crap. AND he was one of the few people in the region capable of keeping Iran in check. AND he kept the sectarian violence in his country to a minimum. Sometimes, the devil you know is better than the one you don't, and as big of a swinging dick as Saddam Hussein was, we'd be better off now with him in power and contained than dead and his region fully destabilized.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

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    Re: Kerry condemns Russia's 'incredible act of aggression' in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    You don't believe those things about Saddam?

    Do you understand that the people (the nation) are sovereign, not a dictator. Dictators lose their right to speak for the people.

    There are no sovereign governments, only sovereign nations.
    LOL more excuses. I understand fully what sovereign is, and that includes the right to have a dictator. But regardless, there will be a vote in 2 months in the Crimea and will Kiev allow the people of Crimea to cede?
    PeteEU

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    Re: Kerry condemns Russia's 'incredible act of aggression' in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
    A detailed analysis might indicate that it is an absolute that the Ukrainian defense ministry would be the reporting body, as they would be the ones having received the threat to begin with. It would also make it rather obvious that the larger Russian military would deny such a thing being threatened by a commander on the front lines, as they have done before.
    Oh I dont disagree, but you have to take their words with a grain of salt, just as you have to take the words of the Russians with a grain of salt. There is a massive propaganda war going on from both sides and both sides are right and wrong.

    For example, Putin says that there was a coup... that is technically correct. But I doubt that the Ukrainians or the west would admit that..

    What we do know, is that the claim came out of the Ukrainian ministry of defence and the Russians denied it. Considering the deadline passed and nothing happened, then that kinda proves the Russian point and puts doubt on the Ukrainian ministry of defence no?

    Plus the Ukrainian Ministry of Defence has no control what so ever over Crimea. The local troops have deserted, and are co-operating with the Russians. Their Navy chief has defected to the Russians.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Kerry condemns Russia's 'incredible act of aggression' in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Oh I dont disagree, but you have to take their words with a grain of salt, just as you have to take the words of the Russians with a grain of salt. There is a massive propaganda war going on from both sides and both sides are right and wrong.

    For example, Putin says that there was a coup... that is technically correct. But I doubt that the Ukrainians or the west would admit that..

    What we do know, is that the claim came out of the Ukrainian ministry of defence and the Russians denied it. Considering the deadline passed and nothing happened, then that kinda proves the Russian point and puts doubt on the Ukrainian ministry of defence no?

    Plus the Ukrainian Ministry of Defence has no control what so ever over Crimea. The local troops have deserted, and are co-operating with the Russians. Their Navy chief has defected to the Russians.
    I have doubts of both sides, and in fact admit I do not know....just as yourself I am left to supposition based on limited data. From what I have been able to gather, the local troops are not cooperating, they are captive in place. I had not heard of the defection to Russia....I thought it was to Crimea.

    And, the officers he asked to join him rejected the plea.

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    Re: Kerry condemns Russia's 'incredible act of aggression' in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    There's no doubt that Saddam was an awful person, but the rationale of "Saddam treats his own people like crap" only came up after the "Saddam is a threat to the U.S." rationale turned out to be a pile of steaming cow crap.
    1. Many supporters of intervention were in it for humanitarian reasons from the beginning. Your narrative is BS. Bush spoke of helping the people of Iraq (and thus the region) in every speech prior to the war.

    2. Saddam had a fake wmd program, to ward off the Iranians. That pile of cow crap was created intentionally, unlike your motive-assigning demonizing hate-based pile of turd above, which is created in partisan idiocy.

    AND he kept the sectarian violence in his country to a minimum.
    Advocating genocide, very nice.

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    Re: Kerry condemns Russia's 'incredible act of aggression' in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    I understand fully what sovereign is, and that includes the right to have a dictator.
    hahaha

    It's so pointless to bother with some.

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    Re: Kerry condemns Russia's 'incredible act of aggression' in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    1. Many supporters of intervention were in it for humanitarian reasons from the beginning. Your narrative is BS. Bush spoke of helping the people of Iraq (and thus the region) in every speech prior to the war.
    Bush paid lip service to helping the people of Iraq. If you honestly think that really entered into the decision to invade, I got a bridge with your name all over it pal.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    2. Saddam had a fake wmd program, to ward off the Iranians. That pile of cow crap was created intentionally, unlike your motive-assigning demonizing hate-based pile of turd above, which is created in partisan idiocy.
    A fake WMD program that was sold to the American people as a very real and very threatening WMD program. Smoking gun, mushroom cloud, that line of lies.

    "Hate-based." More like "reality-based."

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Advocating genocide, very nice.
    Do you think the people of Iraq are better off now than they were under Saddam? The hundreds of people a month getting blown to smithereens by suicide bombers might disagree. Containment and sanctions against Saddam were working.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

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    Re: Kerry condemns Russia's 'incredible act of aggression' in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    Do you think the people of Iraq are better off now than they were under Saddam? The hundreds of people a month getting blown to smithereens by suicide bombers might disagree.
    Advocating genocide. How disgusting.

    Containment and sanctions against Saddam were working.
    He starved 400k children, selling food-from-oil proceeds to neighboring countries, in the couple years before the war. He institutionalized rape. I suppose that's also "working"?

    Nothing was working in Iraq. Not for a long time.

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    Re: Kerry condemns Russia's 'incredible act of aggression' in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    Bush paid lip service to helping the people of Iraq. If you honestly think that really entered into the decision to invade, I got a bridge with your name all over it pal.
    Do you really lack the self awareness capacity to realize you are demonizing the "other"? And doing so to a most pathetic end. How is it that you expect your fellow man to be such a disgusting scoundrel, while you argue for genocide. How does that happen? I tell ya, pal, it sure is ugly from the outside.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 03-04-14 at 08:05 AM.

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