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Kerry condemns Russia's 'incredible act of aggression' in Ukraine

PeteEU said:
Actually it does not. If you followed this mornings news (at least here in Europe on multiple channels), then you would know that most news organisations are reporting that the reported threat came out of the Ukrainian Defence ministry and that the Russians have officially denied it. Both sides are now downplaying it.
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A detailed analysis might indicate that it is an absolute that the Ukrainian defense ministry would be the reporting body, as they would be the ones having received the threat to begin with. It would also make it rather obvious that the larger Russian military would deny such a thing being threatened by a commander on the front lines, as they have done before.
 
ecofarm said:
You don't believe those things about Saddam?

Do you understand that the people (the nation) are sovereign, not a dictator. Dictators lose their right to speak for the people.

There are no sovereign governments, only sovereign nations.
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There's no doubt that Saddam was an awful person, but the rationale of "Saddam treats his own people like crap" only came up after the "Saddam is a threat to the U.S." rationale turned out to be a pile of steaming cow crap. AND he was one of the few people in the region capable of keeping Iran in check. AND he kept the sectarian violence in his country to a minimum. Sometimes, the devil you know is better than the one you don't, and as big of a swinging dick as Saddam Hussein was, we'd be better off now with him in power and contained than dead and his region fully destabilized.
 
ecofarm said:
You don't believe those things about Saddam?

Do you understand that the people (the nation) are sovereign, not a dictator. Dictators lose their right to speak for the people.

There are no sovereign governments, only sovereign nations.
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LOL more excuses. I understand fully what sovereign is, and that includes the right to have a dictator. But regardless, there will be a vote in 2 months in the Crimea and will Kiev allow the people of Crimea to cede?
 
tecoyah said:
A detailed analysis might indicate that it is an absolute that the Ukrainian defense ministry would be the reporting body, as they would be the ones having received the threat to begin with. It would also make it rather obvious that the larger Russian military would deny such a thing being threatened by a commander on the front lines, as they have done before.
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Oh I dont disagree, but you have to take their words with a grain of salt, just as you have to take the words of the Russians with a grain of salt. There is a massive propaganda war going on from both sides and both sides are right and wrong.

For example, Putin says that there was a coup... that is technically correct. But I doubt that the Ukrainians or the west would admit that..

What we do know, is that the claim came out of the Ukrainian ministry of defence and the Russians denied it. Considering the deadline passed and nothing happened, then that kinda proves the Russian point and puts doubt on the Ukrainian ministry of defence no?

Plus the Ukrainian Ministry of Defence has no control what so ever over Crimea. The local troops have deserted, and are co-operating with the Russians. Their Navy chief has defected to the Russians.
 
PeteEU said:
Oh I dont disagree, but you have to take their words with a grain of salt, just as you have to take the words of the Russians with a grain of salt. There is a massive propaganda war going on from both sides and both sides are right and wrong.

For example, Putin says that there was a coup... that is technically correct. But I doubt that the Ukrainians or the west would admit that..

What we do know, is that the claim came out of the Ukrainian ministry of defence and the Russians denied it. Considering the deadline passed and nothing happened, then that kinda proves the Russian point and puts doubt on the Ukrainian ministry of defence no?

Plus the Ukrainian Ministry of Defence has no control what so ever over Crimea. The local troops have deserted, and are co-operating with the Russians. Their Navy chief has defected to the Russians.
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I have doubts of both sides, and in fact admit I do not know....just as yourself I am left to supposition based on limited data. From what I have been able to gather, the local troops are not cooperating, they are captive in place. I had not heard of the defection to Russia....I thought it was to Crimea.

And, the officers he asked to join him rejected the plea.
 
Kobie said:
There's no doubt that Saddam was an awful person, but the rationale of "Saddam treats his own people like crap" only came up after the "Saddam is a threat to the U.S." rationale turned out to be a pile of steaming cow crap.
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1. Many supporters of intervention were in it for humanitarian reasons from the beginning. Your narrative is BS. Bush spoke of helping the people of Iraq (and thus the region) in every speech prior to the war.

2. Saddam had a fake wmd program, to ward off the Iranians. That pile of cow crap was created intentionally, unlike your motive-assigning demonizing hate-based pile of turd above, which is created in partisan idiocy.

AND he kept the sectarian violence in his country to a minimum.
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Advocating genocide, very nice.
 
PeteEU said:
I understand fully what sovereign is, and that includes the right to have a dictator.
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hahaha

It's so pointless to bother with some.
 
ecofarm said:
1. Many supporters of intervention were in it for humanitarian reasons from the beginning. Your narrative is BS. Bush spoke of helping the people of Iraq (and thus the region) in every speech prior to the war.
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Bush paid lip service to helping the people of Iraq. If you honestly think that really entered into the decision to invade, I got a bridge with your name all over it pal.

ecofarm said:
2. Saddam had a fake wmd program, to ward off the Iranians. That pile of cow crap was created intentionally, unlike your motive-assigning demonizing hate-based pile of turd above, which is created in partisan idiocy.
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A fake WMD program that was sold to the American people as a very real and very threatening WMD program. Smoking gun, mushroom cloud, that line of lies.

"Hate-based." More like "reality-based."

ecofarm said:
Advocating genocide, very nice.
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Do you think the people of Iraq are better off now than they were under Saddam? The hundreds of people a month getting blown to smithereens by suicide bombers might disagree. Containment and sanctions against Saddam were working.
 
Kobie said:
Do you think the people of Iraq are better off now than they were under Saddam? The hundreds of people a month getting blown to smithereens by suicide bombers might disagree.
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Advocating genocide. How disgusting.

Containment and sanctions against Saddam were working.
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He starved 400k children, selling food-from-oil proceeds to neighboring countries, in the couple years before the war. He institutionalized rape. I suppose that's also "working"?

Nothing was working in Iraq. Not for a long time.
 
Kobie said:
Bush paid lip service to helping the people of Iraq. If you honestly think that really entered into the decision to invade, I got a bridge with your name all over it pal.
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Do you really lack the self awareness capacity to realize you are demonizing the "other"? And doing so to a most pathetic end. How is it that you expect your fellow man to be such a disgusting scoundrel, while you argue for genocide. How does that happen? I tell ya, pal, it sure is ugly from the outside.
 
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ecofarm said:
hahaha

It's so pointless to bother with some.
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I am serious.. either you remove all dictators world wide or you accept that each country has the right to self determination and yes that includes keeping a brutal dictator in power. Either you actively start going after every single dictator or politician that wants/acts like one, or you let countries do what they want within their own borders. Now which is it?
 
PeteEU said:
I am serious.. either you remove all dictators world wide or you accept that each country has the right to self determination and yes that includes keeping a brutal dictator in power. Either you actively start going after every single dictator or politician that wants/acts like one, or you let countries do what they want within their own borders. Now which is it?
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Sir, you have the right to a dictator. I suggest you exercise that right at the earliest opportunity. Thank you and have a nice day.
 
Krauthammer had a good line. "The admin that thinks climate change is our biggest security threat is shocked that Russia is interested in territory." I guess Obama learned what a geo-political threat is.


'
 
tecoyah said:
I have doubts of both sides, and in fact admit I do not know....just as yourself I am left to supposition based on limited data. From what I have been able to gather, the local troops are not cooperating, they are captive in place. I had not heard of the defection to Russia....I thought it was to Crimea.

And, the officers he asked to join him rejected the plea.
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Well that airbase where the "first shot" was given, it seems that the Ukrainian men wanted their jobs back, and are now cooperating with the Russians.

As for the defection

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26410431

I dont know what information is coming to American news viewers, but I suspect it is rather selective when it comes to what is actually happening and very pro Kiev and anti Russian.. that is the usual bull**** coming from American media. Now I despise Putin but the real question is would you rather have the devil you know, than the devil you dont? On that front Putin and Russia do have a point.. there some elements of the Ukranian opposition that are not exactly kosher (yes that is a pun since they are anti-semitc racists).

Fact is the situation on Crimea is hardly black and white. You have the new government in Kiev trying to assert its power over a part of Ukraine that has a lot of self determination. The same people that are in the new government tried not long ago to curb this self determination and that has resulted in some of (if not a majority) the local police, para-military and other security forces to jump ship and pledge intelligence to the Russian back locally elected parliament and Prime Minister. Hell there is a story that some of these forces were actually dismissed by the people in Kiev and are now demanding their jobs back.. see the airbase incident.

It is basically a huge mess, and the fire is being fanned from all sides including the US and the US right wing. Some commentators here in Europe are pointing out that the rhetoric coming from Washington is more designed for the domestic politics that actual real world politics, since the US has very little trade with Russia in the first place and any sanctions or visa restrictions would probably hurt the US more than Russia.
 
ecofarm said:
Sir, you have the right to a dictator. I suggest you exercise that right at the earliest opportunity. Thank you and have a nice day.
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It is funny coming from a country where they have friendly dictators and allow them to live on.. but when the dictator is not friendly any more, then it is off with his head. How about butting out of other countries affairs? Would work wonders around the world.
 
I get so confused. We are suppose to get involved in this one, but not get involved in Syria/Iraq Insurgency/Central Africa/South Sudan?
 
PeteEU said:
I am serious.. either you remove all dictators world wide or you accept that each country has the right to self determination and yes that includes keeping a brutal dictator in power. Either you actively start going after every single dictator or politician that wants/acts like one, or you let countries do what they want within their own borders. Now which is it?
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Holy ****. I agree with PeteEU. Someone take away my Koolaid.
 
ecofarm said:
Do you really lack the self awareness capacity to realize you are demonizing the "other"? And doing so to a most pathetic end. How is it that you expect your fellow man to be such a disgusting scoundrel, while you argue for genocide. How does that happen? I tell ya, pal, it sure is ugly from the outside.
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The fact that you're dishonest enough to claim I am "arguing for genocide" tells me all I need to know about you.
 
PeteEU said:
It is funny coming from a country where they have friendly dictators and allow them to live on.. but when the dictator is not friendly any more, then it is off with his head. How about butting out of other countries affairs? Would work wonders around the world.
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... If you cannot afford a dictator, one will be appointed by the court. We would appreciate your cooperation and expect a complete cessation of exercising of any rights.

Good day.
 
ecofarm said:
He starved 400k children, selling food-from-oil proceeds to neighboring countries, in the couple years before the war. He institutionalized rape. I suppose that's also "working"?

Nothing was working in Iraq. Not for a long time.
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True enough, but it's working a lot worse now. Saddam was a horrible man, but the region is worse off with him gone. We're not talking about a part of the world that has its **** together. You really think Iran would be trying to go nuclear with Saddam right next door? They tried it once, and they shut the program down.
 
Kobie said:
The fact that you're dishonest enough to claim I am "arguing for genocide" tells me all I need to know about you.
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Ignorance. Genocide is what kept Saddam in control of Iraq, what gave his absolute authority and an ability to stomp out any and all opposition. When you say things were better under Saddam you are -in fact- arguing for genocide as some kind of short-sighted, warped and sick version of "stability".
 
Kobie said:
True enough, but it's working a lot worse now. Saddam was a horrible man, but the region is worse off with him gone.
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No one can be this ignorant.

Good day.
 
ecofarm said:
Ignorance. Genocide is what kept Saddam in control of Iraq, what gave his absolute authority and an ability to stomp out any and all opposition. When you say things were better under Saddam you are -in fact- arguing for genocide as some kind of short-sighted, warped and sick version of "stability".
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No, FEAR is what kept Saddam in control. Yes, he was an ASSHOLE. Nobody is arguing that he wasn't.

Were there Al Qaeda fighters bombing random civilians in Iraq when Saddam was in power? NO.
Were Christians being killed in Iraq when Saddam was in power? NO.
Was there rampant sectarian violence in Iraq when Saddam was in power? NO.
Did Iran attempt to fulfill its nuclear ambitions when Saddam was in power? NO.

That's ALL I'm saying. So take your "Advocating Genocide" garbage and cram it.

ecofarm said:
No one can be this ignorant.

Good day.
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Bye.

And, btw, regardless of your opinion of Iraq, there is no way in hell you're going to convince me it was worth a trillion dollars and nearly 5,000 American lives to try to "fix." GOOD DAY.
 
PeteEU said:
Well that airbase where the "first shot" was given, it seems that the Ukrainian men wanted their jobs back, and are now cooperating with the Russians.

As for the defection

BBC News - New head of Ukraine's navy defects in Crimea

I dont know what information is coming to American news viewers, but I suspect it is rather selective when it comes to what is actually happening and very pro Kiev and anti Russian.. that is the usual bull**** coming from American media. Now I despise Putin but the real question is would you rather have the devil you know, than the devil you dont? On that front Putin and Russia do have a point.. there some elements of the Ukranian opposition that are not exactly kosher (yes that is a pun since they are anti-semitc racists).

Fact is the situation on Crimea is hardly black and white. You have the new government in Kiev trying to assert its power over a part of Ukraine that has a lot of self determination. The same people that are in the new government tried not long ago to curb this self determination and that has resulted in some of (if not a majority) the local police, para-military and other security forces to jump ship and pledge intelligence to the Russian back locally elected parliament and Prime Minister. Hell there is a story that some of these forces were actually dismissed by the people in Kiev and are now demanding their jobs back.. see the airbase incident.

It is basically a huge mess, and the fire is being fanned from all sides including the US and the US right wing. Some commentators here in Europe are pointing out that the rhetoric coming from Washington is more designed for the domestic politics that actual real world politics, since the US has very little trade with Russia in the first place and any sanctions or visa restrictions would probably hurt the US more than Russia.
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I believe the Ukrainian troops were unarmed and attempting to develop dialogue with the Russians...Commander to commander. They were likely trying to find a diplomatic way to protect their families (who are on the base), and diffuse a bad situation. Here in the U.S. much of the news is coming from both BBC reporters and left/right wing sources....though admittedly the right wing tends to report on what the left produces as they do not have much of a presence overseas.
 
Were there Al Qaeda fighters bombing random civilians in Iraq when Saddam was in power? NO.
Were Christians being killed in Iraq when Saddam was in power? NO.
Was there rampant sectarian violence in Iraq when Saddam was in power? NO.
Did Iran attempt to fulfill its nuclear ambitions when Saddam was in power? NO.
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Because Saddam killed, on average, only counting the 4 biggest events, 50k per year. There was pretty much no one left to kill (or do business with), even if an organization managed to get three or four people together before being caught and slaughtered.

Christians were not killed because only Saddam was allowed to kill people, and he did so sometimes by towns of 10k. A handful of Christians doesn't exactly compare to 200k Kurds or 50k Marsh Arabs.

Iran was attempting to fulfill its nuclear ambitions when Saddam was in power. Who told you otherwise?



You want genocide, invading neighbors, 17 unscr violations, a fake wmd program, institutionalized rape and widespread intentional starvation for the people of Iraq. You think that's better than terrorists. Obviously, in you, the terrorists have won.
 
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