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Thread: Lois Lerner does about-face, will give Hill testimony on IRS scandal

  1. #371
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    Re: Lois Lerner does about-face, will give Hill testimony on IRS scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    Immunity is not on the table.
    That doesn't mean a pardon down the road is out of the question...
    Last edited by ChezC3; 03-07-14 at 04:17 PM.

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    Re: Lois Lerner does about-face, will give Hill testimony on IRS scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Umm... No.... The law defines 501c4's as
    (501) (C) (4)
    (A) Civic leagues or organizations not organized for profit but operated exclusively for the promotion of social welfare, or local associations of employees, the membership of which is limited to the employees of a designated person or persons in a particular municipality, and the net earnings of which are devoted exclusively to charitable, educational, or recreational purposes.
    (B) Subparagraph (A) shall not apply to an entity unless no part of the net earnings of such entity inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual.

    Politics is not social welfare. Now I agree, these groups can lobby, but they can't engage in electioneering in any way shape or form.

    Social Welfare - The well-being of the entire society. Social welfare is not the same as standard of living but is more concerned with the quality of life that includes factors such as the quality of the environment (air, soil, water), level of crime, extent of drug abuse, availability of essential social services, as well as religious and spiritual aspects of life.

    Forming a political group interested in electing people who will reform the tax code is NOT social welfare.

    If you want to do that, then you should file under 26 U.S.C. 527 : US Code - Section 527: Political organizations
    When trying to prove the legal definition of a phrase you probably shouldn't pull from BusinessDictionary.com.

    But then "social welfare" isn't clearly defined in the law, so I can see your conundrum.

    Advocating for one side of an issue is not political. Most Tea Partiers don't give a damn who balanced the budget or lowered taxes, in the end. Just because lately Democrats seem universally opposed to that concept doesn't mean that Tea Party goals are political.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

  3. #373
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    Re: Lois Lerner does about-face, will give Hill testimony on IRS scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Source please...because news reports have identified in this case about a hundred conservative groups to 7 liberal ones...my math may not be that great but that sure is a lot more than 3:1 ...

    MediaMatters link incoming.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Lois Lerner does about-face, will give Hill testimony on IRS scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    No, I've not given an inch on the possibility, probability really, that the IRS inappropriately delayed / obstructed the approval processing of conservative political groups. It almost appears a certainty that they in fact did, why else apologize for it? Why apologize for something that didn't happen?


    Given the links and reporting above, I think it pretty clear that it did indeed happen. With Lerner taking the 5th, seems likely that she was the person that ordered it, and possibly was told or order it from someone else, perhaps the administration.

    Whether or not this is illegal I can't speak to, but it certainly makes me uneasy that an governmental organization as powerful as the IRS now has precedent to attack and harass the political opposition of the administration in power. This is toothpaste that I'd very much want to see back in the tube, on a permanent and guaranteed basis. This far more important, in my mind at least, than if this administration ordered it or not, although that's really bad as well. Last time it was Nixon that did it, and the Democrats at the time, quite rightfully so, had a kanipshin. Now it's the Republican's turn to have their kanipshin over this, and again, quite rightfully so. The IRS cannot, and should not, be used to attack political opponents.

    Yeah, if she thought what she did on the job was legal she wouldn't be pleading the 5th.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

  5. #375
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    Re: Lois Lerner does about-face, will give Hill testimony on IRS scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    That doesn't mean a pardon down the road is out of the question...
    If she's covering Obama's ass, it may very well be that she'll get one when she takes the fall for him. I'd be on the look out for that.

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    Re: Lois Lerner does about-face, will give Hill testimony on IRS scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    When trying to prove the legal definition of a phrase you probably shouldn't pull from BusinessDictionary.com.

    But then "social welfare" isn't clearly defined in the law, so I can see your conundrum.

    Advocating for one side of an issue is not political. Most Tea Partiers don't give a damn who balanced the budget or lowered taxes, in the end. Just because lately Democrats seem universally opposed to that concept doesn't mean that Tea Party goals are political.
    Perfect! I think you exactly expressed the root cause of all the disagreements. You don't consider TEA party groups to be non-political. So lets start there. What's the difference between a political group which we all agree should be 527 and a Social Welfare group which should be 501c4?
    Last edited by Mithros; 03-07-14 at 04:26 PM.

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    Re: Lois Lerner does about-face, will give Hill testimony on IRS scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    We cannot debate your beliefs. They are yours and we can leave it at that.
    Please give me any plausible series of events where Issa could be telling the truth.

    Why can't you just accept that he's lying? Democrats, Republicans, Tea Partiers, Lawyers, Husbands, Wives, Children, etc.... they ALL lie. And yet Issa.... well we can't possibly know if he's lying.

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    Re: Lois Lerner does about-face, will give Hill testimony on IRS scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Please give me any plausible series of events where Issa could be telling the truth.

    Why can't you just accept that he's lying? Democrats, Republicans, Tea Partiers, Lawyers, Husbands, Wives, Children, etc.... they ALL lie. And yet Issa.... well we can't possibly know if he's lying.
    Everyone lies? How do I know you're telling the truth?

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    Re: Lois Lerner does about-face, will give Hill testimony on IRS scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Perfect! I think you exactly expressed the root cause of all the disagreements. You don't consider TEA party groups to be non-political. So lets start there. What's the difference between a political group which we all agree should be 527 and a Social Welfare group which should be 501c4?
    What? I didn't say I thought Tea Party groups are political, they are ideological. Being for or against higher taxes is not inherently political. If your groups primary goal is to educate the public on the effects of taxation on the population you are not being political, you are advocating your group's ideology, which is fully supported under 501c4.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Lois Lerner does about-face, will give Hill testimony on IRS scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Everyone lies? How do I know you're telling the truth?
    Hah, yeah, I don't think Mithros thought that statement through strategically. The only use of such proclamations that I can think of is to make robots explode.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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