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Russian Parliament Wants Ambassador Recalled

WCH said:
I posted this from a friend on another thread.
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1) Immediately have the US and the EU confer with Ukraine and tell them to NOT attack the Russian troops in the Crimea. Have them immediately mobilize their forces to their borders and take up positions and prepare and make any further Russian aggression have to come through their prepared positions. Right now the Crimea is lost, and attacking them there will only invite a much larger invasion and the potential loss of all of the Ukraine.
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Good points, but we have to consider that half of their military brass is of the Russian language group. They probably didn't like the revolt to begin with. I don't think we have to worry about them not wanting to see action against who they see as their brothers in arms. As for Crimea, it was Russian to begin with, having only been given to Ukraine to administer as a paperwork shuffle in 1954 by Kruschev. Not worth dying for.


2) The US should immediately start flying C-17s into Kiev (the Ukraine Capitol) loaded with advisors, provisions, trainers, and a a security force for those people. We cannot get enough people there to stop Putin at this point, but we can show him that the price for taking the Ukraine has now gone up and would be too steep for him.
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Bold, but we won't do that, because it will escalate the situation. It will be viewed as an hostile act. This is not Iraq, and Saddam's allowing us to slowly build up forces in Kuwait over a year or two before he is to be attacked. Every C-17 will fly within only a few miles of overwhelming Russian air power and air defense systems. Each US special forces soldier will also be in the midst of Ukranian soldiers, half of whom will be Russian speaking and most likely waiting for the orders to garrote them in their sleep. These are not Iraqis and Afghanis we are playing with here, but the sons and grandsons of men who knocked the hell out the German army in WW2 all the way to Berlin, and would have gone further had we not had the bomb. I don't think the Russians will think it too much of a price to pay if they decide whatever they decide, but I think they will just let Ukraine return to the fold on its own. Their former leader that was just released from prison is going to see Putin this coming Monday. They had a good relationship before when she was in power. I believe they will come to an understanding. Russia this far has only had to say, "Boo!" and the West jumped.

Goodness, I just had an epiphany. Putin never liked the guy they just toppled. He always got along with her, though. Could this not have been the plan all along, going back a couple of years or more, to bring out the EU just so far, and see what they would do to test their mettle, letting the rest of eastern Europe see just how unreliable NATO, the US, and EU will be in the long run compared to holding their cards fast with the Russians. Hmmm, that would make Putin one hell-ova strategist.

3) Have the NATO and European countries (Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Spain) do the same thing (Number 2) at other critical points throughout the Ukraine.
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Any such actions will be seen as an offensive act and will only escalate the situation. A country has to be able to back up such moves, especially against a nation like Russia. The US and NATO have neither the men or material to fight a large modern land war in Europe as would be the case necessary here to stop any Russian offensive. We have had a hard enough time just containing cave dwellers in Afghanistan.

4) Immediately move to make the rest of the Ukraine a part of NATO.
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Okay, not sure what this would do. I suspect, that would just encourage the more prosperous and productive east Ukraine to break off into its own country. I don't think that is what Russia wants. They just want a stable Ukraine that is within their sphere of interest.

5) Hasten the Ukraine's entry into the EU.
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Again, it would just lead the eastern Ukraine, which is the more Russian speaking, productive, and prosperous, to break off into its own country.

Not sure if any of this could or will be done.
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Sound thoughts, all in all, but I don't think it can or will be done. EU took a gambit on trying to draw away Ukraine, and it did not work out. They will not fight a major land war in Europe over them. They will be back in bed dealing with the Russians like nothing happened within months. Most of the leaders of this revolt will slip into irrelevance and disappear once Yulia Tymoshenko comes back into the fore and makes amends with Putin on Monday.
 
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Although personally I am against intervention I feel that the US has lost a lot of moral and political high ground in this. Other than a threat of economic sanctions against Russia our government has barely said anything else, this is just bad leadership on our part. Europe wont do anything without US lead since they always get timid everytime Russia is involved. Our current allies are probably thinking twice now whether we could be truly depended on should another rising superpower, like China for example, decides to do this to the other countries in the Pacific region.
 
PoS said:
Although personally I am against intervention I feel that the US has lost a lot of moral and political high ground in this. Other than a threat of economic sanctions against Russia our government has barely said anything else, this is just bad leadership on our part. Europe wont do anything without US lead since they always get timid everytime Russia is involved. Our current allies are probably thinking twice now whether we could be truly depended on should another rising superpower, like China for example, decides to do this to the other countries in the Pacific region.
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Good thoughts. Could have been part of the plan all along. I never cease to be surprised by the underestimations of Putin. He was a career KGB agent. You didn't get far unless you mastered maneuvering your way around the intrepid pit of the Kremlin and the communist world during the Cold War.

Monday, though, is the big day of revelation. Yulia Tymoshenko, the former leader of the Ukraine just released from prison, is going to meet Putin in Moscow. Their relationship was always good, compared to the now deposed leader hiding out in Russia. That she is going at this present time, is rather surprising in itself. Yet, perhaps not.
 
Rainman05 said:
You can't do anything. Nobody can. You can counter the russian invasion. Not the USA. Not the EU. Nobody. Why? Because it's Russia and you don't want this cold war 2.0 to become a really, really hot war.

So if the russians will want Crimea, they'll take Crimea. if they'll want to take Kharkiv Oblast, Luhasnka Oblast and/or Donestk Oblast... they'll tkae them all. They can take even Zaporishnya which is a very beautiful city and a lot of the East and SE regions which are Russian speaking predominantly...
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Easy. Handing over Crimea at the cost of Ukrain's integrity because the people there are predominantly Russian speaking is just an excuse for us amateur politically primed peers. Officials may not think so and thereby this may not be applied that easily and on those grounds. Much less generalized over other countries also.

Rainman05 said:
You know, for me, this is quite defeating, spiritually. It reminds me of why the Republic of Moldavia exists and why transnistria exists.
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It reminds me how lucky we are to exist. We would probably be not free and under Serbian/Russian dictatorship and oppression still if it was not for Clinton, Tony, Schreoder, and Yeltsin mostly.

I bet things would have been different with different leaders in Ukraine, USA, Russia, and EU countries. But perhaps there still is hope. Things may develop for the better.
 
SBu said:
I have no idea what the cold war was like. Were words enough to keep Russia from doing crazy ****? I guess I just don't know how close we can get to the border without crossing it with respect to actions and war.
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I doubt we've ever come closer to nuclear war than the Cuban Missile Crisis. Mere words? No.

In October 1962, an American U-2 spy plane secretly photographed nuclear missile sites being built by the Soviet Union on the island of Cuba. President Kennedy did not want the Soviet Union and Cuba to know that he had discovered the missiles. He met in secret with his advisors for several days to discuss the problem.

After many long and difficult meetings, Kennedy decided to place a naval blockade, or a ring of ships, around Cuba. The aim of this "quarantine," as he called it, was to prevent the Soviets from bringing in more military supplies. He demanded the removal of the missiles already there and the destruction of the sites. On October 22, President Kennedy spoke to the nation about the crisis in a televised address.

No one was sure how Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev would respond to the naval blockade and U.S. demands. But the leaders of both superpowers recognized the devastating possibility of a nuclear war and publicly agreed to a deal in which the Soviets would dismantle the weapon sites in exchange for a pledge from the United States not to invade Cuba. In a separate deal, which remained secret for more than twenty-five years, the United States also agreed to remove its nuclear missiles from Turkey. Although the Soviets removed their missiles from Cuba, they escalated the building of their military arsenal; the missile crisis was over, the arms race was not.
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A link to what JFK told the American people in the midst of the crisis: Modern History Sourcebook: John F. Kennedy: Address on the Cuban Crisis October 22, 1962

JFKs speech to the American people lays out the actions that went with the words.

I think the American people and all of congress were completely behind the President's decisions regards Cuba. Rattling sabers re the Ukraine? Not even close.
 
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Montecresto said:
I thought the treaty was to respect their borders?
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The treaty signed by Russia, US and the UK. Treaty states that all 3 countries respect Ukraine's sovereignty. Russia broke this treaty and must face the consequences
 
SayMyName said:
Good points, but we have to consider that half of their military brass is of the Russian language group. They probably didn't like the revolt to begin with. I don't think we have to worry about them not wanting to see action against who they see as their brothers in arms. As for Crimea, it was Russian to begin with, having only been given to Ukraine to administer as a paperwork shuffle in 1954 by Kruschev. Not worth dying for.




Bold, but we won't do that, because it will escalate the situation. It will be viewed as an hostile act. This is not Iraq, and Saddam's allowing us to slowly build up forces in Kuwait over a year or two before he is to be attacked. Every C-17 will fly within only a few miles of overwhelming Russian air power and air defense systems. Each US special forces soldier will also be in the midst of Ukranian soldiers, half of whom will be Russian speaking and most likely waiting for the orders to garrote them in their sleep. These are not Iraqis and Afghanis we are playing with here, but the sons and grandsons of men who knocked the hell out the German army in WW2 all the way to Berlin, and would have gone further had we not had the bomb. I don't think the Russians will think it too much of a price to pay if they decide whatever they decide, but I think they will just let Ukraine return to the fold on its own. Their former leader that was just released from prison is going to see Putin this coming Monday. They had a good relationship before when she was in power. I believe they will come to an understanding. Russia this far has only had to say, "Boo!" and the West jumped.

Goodness, I just had an epiphany. Putin never liked the guy they just toppled. He always got along with her, though. Could this not have been the plan all along, going back a couple of years or more, to bring out the EU just so far, and see what they would do to test their mettle, letting the rest of eastern Europe see just how unreliable NATO, the US, and EU will be in the long run compared to holding their cards fast with the Russians. Hmmm, that would make Putin one hell-ova strategist.



Any such actions will be seen as an offensive act and will only escalate the situation. A country has to be able to back up such moves, especially against a nation like Russia. The US and NATO have neither the men or material to fight a large modern land war in Europe as would be the case necessary here to stop any Russian offensive. We have had a hard enough time just containing cave dwellers in Afghanistan.



Okay, not sure what this would do. I suspect, that would just encourage the more prosperous and productive east Ukraine to break off into its own country. I don't think that is what Russia wants. They just want a stable Ukraine that is within their sphere of interest.



Again, it would just lead the eastern Ukraine, which is the more Russian speaking, productive, and prosperous, to break off into its own country.



Sound thoughts, all in all, but I don't think it can or will be done. EU took a gambit on trying to draw away Ukraine, and it did not work out. They will not fight a major land war in Europe over them. They will be back in bed dealing with the Russians like nothing happened within months. Most of the leaders of this revolt will slip into irrelevance and disappear once Yulia Tymoshenko comes back into the fore and makes amends with Putin on Monday.
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Yep, I mainly posted this because there were many here asking "what should Obama do?"

He opted to tell Putin that he would "lose face" with the International community he Russia continued.

Barry oughta know.
 
WCH said:
Yep, I mainly posted this because there were many here asking "what should Obama do?"

He opted to tell Putin that he would "lose face" with the International community he Russia continued.

Barry oughta know.
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Absolutely. I just feel that though there are many that want us to be involved in everything, in reality, we can't. Nor would we tolerate anyone doing the same in our own backyard. We are over-extended, and no longer have the popular war to take on a war the proportions of which would be on a scale of World War 2. Good discussion though. It will be interesting to see what unfolds in the next few days.
 
SayMyName said:
Absolutely. I just feel that though there are many that want us to be involved in everything, in reality, we can't. Nor would we tolerate anyone doing the same in our own backyard. We are over-extended, and no longer have the popular war to take on a war the proportions of which would be on a scale of World War 2. Good discussion though. It will be interesting to see what unfolds in the next few days.
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In other news: France has backed out of the preparatory meetings for the G-8 in Sochi, Russia.

UK joins U.S., France in pulling out of G8 preparatory meetings
 
Russia to blackout the Oscar coverage tonight, becoming eerily similar to pre berlin wall collapse Russia
 
Higgins86 said:
Russia to blackout the Oscar coverage tonight, becoming eerily similar to pre berlin wall collapse Russia
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They're not missing much at all.
 
rocket88 said:
It doesn't matter against Russia. The only war with Russia is going to be nuclear. Do you want to die for Ukraine?
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do the Russians? definitely a terrible risk of nuclear war when fighting a nuclear power an unacceptable risk maybe but short of invading Russia and threating to overthrow its government wouldn't it make sense to fight a war with out the nukes even loss of control over Ukraine seem preferable to global annihilation via caned sunshine
 
Higgins86 said:
Russia to blackout the Oscar coverage tonight, becoming eerily similar to pre berlin wall collapse Russia
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Yes, that's totally the worst thing that's happening in Russia tonight....:roll:
 
blarg said:
do the Russians? definitely a terrible risk of nuclear war when fighting a nuclear power an unacceptable risk maybe but short of invading Russia and threating to overthrow its government wouldn't it make sense to fight a war with out the nukes even loss of control over Ukraine seem preferable to global annihilation via caned sunshine
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Russia does have vital military interests in the Crimean peninsula. We do not, though I'd hope that our reaction to an overthrow of the British government to be similar.
 
rocket88 said:
Russia does have vital military interests in the Crimean peninsula. We do not, though I'd hope that our reaction to an overthrow of the British government to be similar.
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ok but is anything in that their worth mutual suicide between them and the untied states im sure its worth fighting for, for them just not sure its worth nuclear war to them

do we need to help the British government if its oppressing an or murdering its people?
 
rocket88 said:
Yes, that's totally the worst thing that's happening in Russia tonight....:roll:
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oh sorry did I say it was the worst? No don't think I did...Thanks for you input though big man.
 
The situation in Ukraine is not our business, the country is too big, too poor and Russia has a lot of nukes.Let Putin swallow the East, and let EU to get sometimes the West.I do not want to pay my tax for crazy new war which can end in a nuclear Apocalypse.
 
Alfons said:
The situation in Ukraine is not our business, the country is too big, too poor and Russia has a lot of nukes.Let Putin swallow the East, and let EU to get sometimes the West.I do not want to pay my tax for crazy new war which can end in a nuclear Apocalypse.
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Actually it is Americas business because you along with the UK and Russia all signed a treaty saying that your would guarentee and respect Ukraines borders if they gave up their nukes.
 
What the .... we need to remember all our old treaties? It is not our business to play a world sheriff. It would be hundred of millions dead in case of a WWIII. Do not forget that probably China will support Russia in new war. Better let Ukraine flush down the toilet as a nuclear war.
 
Higgins86 said:
The treaty signed by Russia, US and the UK. Treaty states that all 3 countries respect Ukraine's sovereignty. Russia broke this treaty and must face the consequences
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I disagree first of all that Russia has disrespected their sovereignty, a country on ones border which explodes in civil unrest is hardly an illegitimate concern. Both the US and UK travel abroad to respond to countries in similar situation regularly to influence the outcome, and the Putin criticisms are hypocritical.
 
Alfons said:
What the .... we need to remember all our old treaties? It is not our business to play a world sheriff. It would be hundred of millions dead in case of a WWIII. Do not forget that probably China will support Russia in new war. Better let Ukraine flush down the toilet as a nuclear war.
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Yeah, these are people afraid of loosing face. Afraid the US won't be the toughest one anymore. The fact is that the reason why the US is loosing power is because we abused it, the patronising soul will never concede to that, but that's just the way it works.
 
Morons like Obama and Nuland have make everything to kindle rebellion in Ukraine and overthrown the freely elected president, let both idiots go in the first rows to fight against Putin.
 
Alfons said:
The situation in Ukraine is not our business, the country is too big, too poor and Russia has a lot of nukes.Let Putin swallow the East, and let EU to get sometimes the West.I do not want to pay my tax for crazy new war which can end in a nuclear Apocalypse.
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Treaties are the law of the land, thus, Obama is required by law to honor the terms of the treaty.
 
apdst said:
Treaties are the law of the land, thus, Obama is required by law to honor the terms of the treaty.
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Couldn't he just ignore the treaty?
 
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