• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

Montecresto said:
The EU is struggling right now too! Anyway, if Putin moves to secure the country and his assets, installs a pro Russian government and gets the hell out, everyone will be better off, save the half of the population that won't be happy. If Putin has designs beyond Ukraine as so many are accusing him of, then that's a different story, and I suppose the EU couldn't afford not to do something.
Click to expand...

A "pro-Russian government" can no longer be sustained in Ukraine except by force.:peace
 
Montecresto said:
Nations don't think! If you were talking to me, I'm not satisfied that this is Russian imperialism (yet anyway) as you apparently think. By the way, should I assume that you're against what Putins doing.
Click to expand...

What Putin is doing is good for Russia. I'm not Russian, so that's inconsequential to me. Now the question is, since I'm a Westerner, is it good for the West?

But lol "nations don't think". You're just a simple fella, aren't you?
 
Kasparov, a council member of The Human Rights Foundation, left Russia last year. (long time world chess champion)

He agrees with President Barack Obama’s assessment that the current standoff with Moscow is not "some Cold War chessboard."
"In chess we have rules, and clearly Putin doesn't care about rules," said Kasparov. "What he has been doing now in Ukraine – it violates international law, and international treaties Russia has signed before."
Click to expand...
Garry Kasparov: This isn't Cold War chess, chess has rules – Putin doesn't care about rules – The Lead with Jake Tapper - CNN.com Blogs

Thinking about Kasparov the other day ( while I was losing a tournament game..lol)

He ran as an opposition figure to Putin - think it was for the president, but it's been a long time and I don't feel like googling it.

He finally left Russia a year or so ago, said his life was in danger - looks like he knew what he was talking about - Putin wouldn't have any trouble silencing domestic opposition ( my opinion)
 
OldWorldOrder said:
What Putin is doing is good for Russia. I'm not Russian, so that's inconsequential to me. Now the question is, since I'm a Westerner, is it good for the West?

But lol "nations don't think". You're just a simple fella, aren't you?
Click to expand...

People do think, and people decide the direction a country goes, so I'm interested in what Bush, Obama, Putin and Merkel think about IL. And securing his port and military posts is for sure good for Russia, and reasonable. And with half the countries loyalties to Russia, he has far more legitimacy then most are acknowledging. It's what he does after he has secured the country, and has seen to it a pro-Russian government is up and running that will affect my opinion further.
 
Montecresto said:
People do think, and people decide the direction a country goes, so I'm interested in what Bush, Obama, Putin and Merkel think about IL. And securing his port and military posts is for sure good for Russia, and reasonable. And with half the countries loyalties to Russia, he has far more legitimacy then most are acknowledging. It's what he does after he has secured the country, and has seen to it a pro-Russian government is up and running that will affect my opinion further.
Click to expand...

lol. Just so funny to hear you defend power politics and ignoring world opinion and international law after all this time of you complaining about the US doing those things. I love it!
 
Montecresto said:
That's because that would be a big bluff to call. Better we leave well enough alone.
Click to expand...

It maybe a big bluff, but it might be an acceptable risk. Russia has already needed to sell 10 billion in bonds to keep their rouble stable. At the end of the day, Russia is not like the Arab nations who pulled the last large scale energy embargo (extremely small, ethnicaly homogenous populations and huge currency reserves).

Rather, Russia has 170 million people including a certain number who are not ethnically Russian and may or may not identify with Russian goals. For example, some of their natural gas provinces are in Muslim provinces. The local populations might not be supportive if Putin not only wants to strong arm fellow Muslims in Crimea, but also cuts of their source of revenue.

Montecresto said:
The EU is struggling right now too! Anyway, if Putin moves to secure the country and his assets, installs a pro Russian government and gets the hell out, everyone will be better off, save the half of the population that won't be happy.
Click to expand...
CNN, or one of the other big networks was saying the Putin wants not only a pro Russian governmet, but also a union treaty between Ukraine and Russia. In short, he might not be leaving.
Jack Hays said:
A "pro-Russian government" can no longer be sustained in Ukraine except by force.:peace
Click to expand...
I agree (and doubly agree if Putin wants a union treaty).

As a side note, Putins claims that Russians are in the majority in Crimea are based on a census that is ten years old and did not count the continued influx of pro Ukrainian Tatars. Western oriented Ukrainians can even call out crowds in Kharkov / Kharkiy which is in far east Urkraine. And... the Ukrainian admiral who defected has gone to Ukrainian bases trying to get more Ukrainians to join him and has been flatly turned down.

Though there are probably millions of wildly pro Russian Ukrainians, my guess is that the total number is substantially less than 50% of the population.
 
Last edited:
Montecresto said:
Sure I do. But what transpired in Ukraine wasn't a revolution, it was an anti-democracy rebellion. And you wouldn't condone it here, or would you?
Click to expand...

It was a protest movement against the criminal and corrupt government of Yanukovych that ended up with a peace deal to reform the government. When the Ukrainian Parliament (the dude's own party, BTW) voted to impeach Yanukovych, he and his ministers fled to Russia. If Obama (or Bush) ran away because they got impeached, I'd view that as an abandonment of duty and no longer consider him my president, whether or not I agree with his policies.
 
Last edited:
MadLib said:
It was a protest movement against the criminal and corrupt government of Yanukovych that ended up with a peace deal to reform the government. When the Ukrainian Parliament (the dude's own party, BTW) voted to impeach Yanukovych, he and his ministers fled to Russia. If Obama (or Bush) ran away because they got impeached, I'd view that as an abandonment of duty and no longer consider him my president, whether or not I agree with his policies.
Click to expand...

You're starting to come around. I'm very proud of you!
 
Jack Hays said:
A "pro-Russian government" can no longer be sustained in Ukraine except by force.:peace
Click to expand...

I love it when the apologists for Russian expansionism support the idea of Putin forcibly restoring Yanukovych to the presidency. That would be political and diplomatic suicide for Moscow: there's no way that the Ukrainian people would stand even a few more months of that crook's regime, and whatever existing support for Russia amongst Ukrainians would vanish.
 
apdst said:
You're starting to come around. I'm very proud of you!
Click to expand...

Hey! The right of Ukraine to integrate with the European Union freely and without interference by other nations is a very liberal goal. :lol:
 
MadLib said:
Hey! The right of Ukraine to integrate with the European Union freely and without interference by other nations is a very liberal goal. :lol:
Click to expand...

Lately, I've noticed you're displaying a significant amount of common sense. I don't know what happened, and I don't care, because I couldn't be prouder!
 
MadLib said:
It was a protest movement against the criminal and corrupt government of Yanukovych that ended up with a peace deal to reform the government. When the Ukrainian Parliament (the dude's own party, BTW) voted to impeach Yanukovych, he and his ministers fled to Russia. If Obama (or Bush) ran away because they got impeached, I'd view that as an abandonment of duty and no longer consider him my president, whether or not I agree with his policies.
Click to expand...

You don't value your life much.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
lol. Just so funny to hear you defend power politics and ignoring world opinion and international law after all this time of you complaining about the US doing those things. I love it!
Click to expand...

Glad to give my old pal a chuckle. It's funny that you think the West IS THE WORLD. And that international law is only important when you think that a country other than the US has violated it. You forget that you're still wrong that Russia has violated IL. And dude, by you're own admission, on another board, you don't give a **** about IL. but that's between you and me, these guys won't know about that.
 
MadLib said:
Hey! The right of Ukraine to integrate with the European Union freely and without interference by other nations is a very liberal goal. :lol:
Click to expand...

You speak as though ALL of the Ukraine wished for that.
 
MadLib said:
I love it when the apologists for Russian expansionism support the idea of Putin forcibly restoring Yanukovych to the presidency. That would be political and diplomatic suicide for Moscow: there's no way that the Ukrainian people would stand even a few more months of that crook's regime, and whatever existing support for Russia amongst Ukrainians would vanish.
Click to expand...

I love it when Russia doing nothing more than the US would do in similar circumstances is considered "expansionism", wish you hadn't lost your religion, I'm sure I would have liked you dude.
 
Montecresto said:
Glad to give my old pal a chuckle. It's funny that you think the West IS THE WORLD.
Click to expand...

When did I say that? That's one.

And that international law is only important when you think that a country other than the US has violated it.
Click to expand...

I don't think international law is ever important. And I actually specifically said that twice already in this thread. Twice to you[\b]. That's two.

You forget that you're still wrong that Russia has violated IL. And dude, by you're own admission, on another board, you don't give a **** about IL.
Click to expand...

Another board? What are you talking about? But wait, you just said I cared about international law? Now you realize what I've been telling you: that I don't? So do I care or don't I? Sorry but this is gonna have to go down as three. Three horrible mistakes not in opinion but just plain logic, just in this post. Do you see what I'm talking about? You're so bad at this, so you probably don't.

but that's between you and me, these guys won't know about that.
Click to expand...

Uhhh...okay?
 
clownboy said:
Yeah, but how many of them will fight with the Russians if it comes to that?
Click to expand...

No one knows for sure. That's a huge problem for the new Ukrainian government. Moreover, its crude move to remove the designation of Russian as an official regional language won't provide the kind of symbolism for Ukraine's ethnic Russians to be wholly supportive of Kiev.
 
Montecresto said:
The EU is struggling right now too! Anyway, if Putin moves to secure the country and his assets, installs a pro Russian government and gets the hell out, everyone will be better off, save the half of the population that won't be happy. If Putin has designs beyond Ukraine as so many are accusing him of, then that's a different story, and I suppose the EU couldn't afford not to do something.
Click to expand...

I don't believe the EU will do much of anything, with the exception of the eastern european countries formerly part of the Soviet block. They have reason for skepticism of any accommodation of Russia and territory. What exactly a country like Poland might do is questionable, but I doubt they'll just sit back. There's little doubt in my mind that Putin acted to secure his warm water port in the face of the possibility that least might not be renewed. Putin decided to just take it and settle the issue.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
When did I say that? That's one.



I don't think international law is ever important. And I actually specifically said that twice already in this thread. Twice to you[\b]. That's two.



Another board? What are you talking about? But wait, you just said I cared about international law? Now you realize what I've been telling you: that I don't? So do I care or don't I? Sorry but this is gonna have to go down as three. Three horrible mistakes not in opinion but just plain logic, just in this post. Do you see what I'm talking about? You're so bad at this, so you probably don't.



Uhhh...okay?
Click to expand...


You don't care about IL, yet you think I should excuse the US's violation of it as you THINK I'm excusing Russia's. you're still making no sense. I don't know how to deal with you. I guess I'll just take the laugh and go on.
 
Montecresto said:
You don't care about IL, yet you think I should excuse the US's violation of it as you THINK I'm excusing Russia's. you're still making no sense. I don't know how to deal with you. I guess I'll just take the laugh and go on.
Click to expand...

lol, you should BE CONSISTENT. I'm honestly kinda getting disturbed that this is such a foreign concept to you.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
lol, you should BE CONSISTENT. I'm honestly kinda getting disturbed that this is such a foreign concept to you.
Click to expand...

If I thought that Russia was violating IL, and then was excusing it, I would be inconsistent. At this point, in my opinion they haven't. That's subject to change. But anybody excusing what the US has done in the last 13 years while condemning Russia would be the inconsistent ones. You should call them out.
 
Montecresto said:
If I thought that Russia was violating IL, and then was excusing it, I would be inconsistent. At this point, in my opinion they haven't. That's subject to change. But anybody excusing what the US has done in the last 13 years while condemning Russia would be the inconsistent ones. You should call them out.
Click to expand...

....reread that and try again. If you say Russia isn't doing what the US has done, how would what you just typed make sense? The thing about the transitive property is that it's transitive! If it can work one way, it can work the other! So that's your first cognitive error of that post.

The second is that some people might just be supportive of what helps the West/US. Just because they're condemning Russia didn't mean they're condemning Russia on the grounds of international law. Do you understand that, or is that error number two?
 
OldWorldOrder said:
....reread that and try again. If you say Russia isn't doing what the US has done, how would what you just typed make sense? The thing about the transitive property is that it's transitive! If it can work one way, it can work the other! So that's your first cognitive error of that post.

The second is that some people might just be supportive of what helps the West/US. Just because they're condemning Russia didn't mean they're condemning Russia on the grounds of international law. Do you understand that, or is that error number two?
Click to expand...

I do not understand why your having trouble with this, unless you are just enjoying being contrary. I don't believe that at this point Russia has violated IL. I do believe the US has a long history of it. It does appear that you may have just conceded yourself that Russia hasn't violated IL, citing that people may just be condemning Russia for doing what's good for them, but maybe isn't good for the West/US.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom