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Thread: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Absolutely. When dealing with terrorists its best to just bomb the hell out of them, have boots on the ground, and a constant 'surge'. Repeat until the message is clear and any sign of totalitarianism has disappeared, as was the case in Germany and Japan. Once that is complete then it's time to introduce education and an introduction to the modern world.
    How progressive of you. Brutal force followed education campaigns to rid them of their savage ways. White man's burden and all that jive is alive and well.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    It's not just an Obama thing - our appeasement of the thugs who run Pakistan has been going on since the Nixon administration. The fact that Afridi was thrown in jail on trumped up charges speaks to the fact that Pakistan sees al-Qaeda as an asset rather than an enemy.
    That might have been going on for decades but I know of no bigger betrayal then what happened to Dr. Afridi.

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    How progressive of you. Brutal force followed education campaigns to rid them of their savage ways. White man's burden and all that jive is alive and well.
    What force other than 'brutal' would you use in a war against totalitarian regimes? You want to win bin Ladens heart and mind first? Or Hirohitos, Hitlers or Stalin's?

    What is this "White man's burden" silliness?

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Former Vice President Dick Cheney said there is "no question" that Russian President Vladimir Putin believes President Barack Obama is weak, and that the United States should not take military options off the table in its response to Russia's military intervention in Ukraine.
    "I worry when we begin to address the crisis, the first thing we do is take options off the table,” Cheney said on CBS' "Face The Nation" Sunday. “There are military options that don’t involve putting groups on the ground in Crimea.”
    Among them: military training "for the Ukrainians themselves," Cheney said.
    Cheney then criticized what he called President Barack Obama's reflexive urge to say "no military," and the administration's "indecisiveness" in Syria — which has allowed Putin to run "roughshod" over the region.
    "There's no question Putin believes [Obama] is weak," Cheney said. “We have created an image around the world, not just to the Russians, of weakness and indecisiveness. The Syrian situation is a classic. We got all ready to do something, a lot of the allies signed on, at the last minute Obama backed off.”
    Last week on "Face The Nation," Secretary of State John Kerry called Putin's "invasion" of Crimea a "brazen act of aggression" and said there were "a broad array of options" available, but limited the talk to sanctions.
    "The last thing anybody wants is a military option in this kind of a situation," Kerry said on "Meet The Press." "We want a peaceful resolution through the normal processes of international relations."
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Former Vice President Dick Cheney said there is "no question" that Russian President Vladimir Putin believes President Barack Obama is weak, and that the United States should not take military options off the table in its response to Russia's military intervention in Ukraine.
    "I worry when we begin to address the crisis, the first thing we do is take options off the table,” Cheney said on CBS' "Face The Nation" Sunday. “There are military options that don’t involve putting groups on the ground in Crimea.”
    Among them: military training "for the Ukrainians themselves," Cheney said.
    Cheney then criticized what he called President Barack Obama's reflexive urge to say "no military," and the administration's "indecisiveness" in Syria — which has allowed Putin to run "roughshod" over the region.
    "There's no question Putin believes [Obama] is weak," Cheney said. “We have created an image around the world, not just to the Russians, of weakness and indecisiveness. The Syrian situation is a classic. We got all ready to do something, a lot of the allies signed on, at the last minute Obama backed off.”
    Last week on "Face The Nation," Secretary of State John Kerry called Putin's "invasion" of Crimea a "brazen act of aggression" and said there were "a broad array of options" available, but limited the talk to sanctions.
    "The last thing anybody wants is a military option in this kind of a situation," Kerry said on "Meet The Press." "We want a peaceful resolution through the normal processes of international relations."
    Perhaps Kerry would prefer 'a very limited, very targeted, very short-term effort, an unbelievably small, limited kind of effort'. That should make everyone sit up and take notice.

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Oh boy. Quoting Cheney on foreign policy.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    What force other than 'brutal' would you use in a war against totalitarian regimes? You want to win bin Ladens heart and mind first? Or Hirohitos, Hitlers or Stalin's?
    Whose hearts and minds are we winning exactly? The already Pro-US Ukranians? Yeah, that seems to have worked out well in Iraq. Hey, I'm all in favor of stopping people who threaten us. Not Europe. Let them deal with their problems. But just for reference, what's the end game of it all? We fight a war with Russia, then stay in Ukraine indefinitely?

    What is this "White man's burden" silliness?
    "The White Man's Burden": Kipling's Hymn to U.S. Imperialism

    In February 1899, British novelist and poet Rudyard Kipling wrote a poem entitled “The White Man’s Burden: The United States and The Philippine Islands.” In this poem, Kipling urged the U.S. to take up the “burden” of empire, as had Britain and other European nations. Published in the February, 1899 issue of McClure’s Magazine, the poem coincided with the beginning of the Philippine-American War and U.S. Senate ratification of the treaty that placed Puerto Rico, Guam, Cuba, and the Philippines under American control. Theodore Roosevelt, soon to become vice-president and then president, copied the poem and sent it to his friend, Senator Henry Cabot Lodge, commenting that it was “rather poor poetry, but good sense from the expansion point of view.” Not everyone was as favorably impressed as Roosevelt. The racialized notion of the “White Man’s burden” became a euphemism for imperialism, and many anti-imperialists couched their opposition in reaction to the phrase.
    In short, fight a war with a country threatening other countries and then establish a new age imperialism.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    IMO, it remains uncertain what kind of bilateral and multilateral diplomacy is going on with Russia. What is clear is that Russia has staked various rationale for its actions. Perhaps creative diplomacy can be used to "test" Russia's real intentions. In other words, it can be used to determine whether Russia's aims run beyond what it has cited.

    Russia's interests in Crimea are two-fold:

    1. Its naval base at Sevastopol
    2. The wellbeing of Crimea's majority ethnic Russian population.

    Russia has complained that the political revolution in Ukraine led to "fascists" gaining power.

    A diplomatic proposal along the following lines would "test" those assertions:

    1. Crimea would remain part of Ukraine but would be permitted to pursue a "special relationship" with Russia. This would allow Russia to work more closely with the region's majority ethnic Russian population.
    2. The lease of the Sevastopol naval base would be made permanent. The reality is that Ukraine does not possess the power to extract it, so it will be going nowhere. The lease could be ended if Russia agrees to terminate it.
    3. The transitional Ukrainian government would remove the Right Sector movement and similar ideological groups from office. That would address Russia's concerns about "fascists" having gained power.
    4. The Ukrainian government would commit itself to granting the Russian language official recognition in the constitution (current law that was almost repealed). Such protection would assure Ukraine's ethnic Russian minority that they would have a viable place in Ukraine. This would also address Russia's argument that Ukraine's ethnic Russians need protection from Russia.

    Such an outcome would preserve Ukraine's territorial integrity. It would also address Russia's needs and interests. Russia's decision as to whether or not to accept such terms would say much about its goals and ambitions.

    The only real cost to the transitional Ukrainian government would be dissociation from the Right Sector and similar fringe groups. The permanence of the naval base lease would reflect what is already practical reality. A concession is what one has the ability to deny but chooses to yield. The fate of the naval base does not fit that definition.

    I don't expect such terms to be offered, even as they would offer an interesting test of Russia's goals and ambitions. If not, there is a real risk that Ukraine will wind up having lost Crimea.
    Last edited by donsutherland1; 03-10-14 at 12:07 AM.

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Perhaps Kerry would prefer 'a very limited, very targeted, very short-term effort, an unbelievably small, limited kind of effort'. That should make everyone sit up and take notice.
    Unlike you guys, Kerry would prefer not to start WWIII. What a relief that Cheney is not in charge anymore. He's running on batteries now anyway, what would he care if the world ended.

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Whose hearts and minds are we winning exactly? The already Pro-US Ukranians? Yeah, that seems to have worked out well in Iraq. Hey, I'm all in favor of stopping people who threaten us. Not Europe. Let them deal with their problems. But just for reference, what's the end game of it all? We fight a war with Russia, then stay in Ukraine indefinitely?
    You ask a question made up out of nothing and then answer it. Play the solo sport on your own.

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