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Thread: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Right, we signed a treaty that WE would respect their borders, and I don't think that WE are disrespecting their borders. So no broken treaty.
    Well we might be respecting their borders but Russia, the other country that signed this treaty, seems to have violated it, now the question is what we will WE do about it since we have pledged to respect Ukraine's sovereignty.

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Annnd its on like Donkey Kong

    Russian upper house approves use of force in Ukraine - CNN.com

    Russia's upper house of parliament voted unanimously Saturday to approve sending Russian military forces into Ukraine, amid mounting tensions in the country's Crimea region.

    The vote followed a request from Russian President Vladimir Putin for approval to send Russian troops into Crimea to normalize the political situation there.

    Due to the "extraordinary situation in Ukraine," Putin said, there are threats to the lives of Russian citizens and Russian military personnel based in the southern Crimean region.

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by PoS View Post
    Well we might be respecting their borders but Russia, the other country that signed this treaty, seems to have violated it, now the question is what we will WE do about it since we have pledged to respect Ukraine's sovereignty.
    You'd have to be pretty naive to think any nation, to include the USofA would have massive military installations on foreign soil without additional 'treaties' for safeguarding those installations. If there is a self defense 'treaty' for the Russian facilities then unless tanks roll across the Russian/ Ukrainian border and 17 divisions pour across, like in Hungary 1956, I'd say it isn't an invasion.

    The term 'respect' doesn't mean 'defend'. Does the 'treaty' say we will intervene with force if any other nation invades the Ukraine or does it mean we acknowledge the Ukraine as a separate nation?

    Now someone please name the treaty... I can't find one. I have found a Budapest Memorandum of 1994, but can't find the word treaty. the 1994 document doesn't say anyone must use force to maintain a Ukraine. I'm at a lost to figure out where the demand we 'do something' is coming from- just seems another CON attempt to put the President in a bad light for domestic political gain rather than a strong front to the rest of the world.

    Just a bit pathetic, but predictable...

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    You'd have to be pretty naive to think any nation, to include the USofA would have massive military installations on foreign soil without additional 'treaties' for safeguarding those installations. If there is a self defense 'treaty' for the Russian facilities then unless tanks roll across the Russian/ Ukrainian border and 17 divisions pour across, like in Hungary 1956, I'd say it isn't an invasion.

    The term 'respect' doesn't mean 'defend'. Does the 'treaty' say we will intervene with force if any other nation invades the Ukraine or does it mean we acknowledge the Ukraine as a separate nation?

    Now someone please name the treaty... I can't find one. I have found a Budapest Memorandum of 1994, but can't find the word treaty. the 1994 document doesn't say anyone must use force to maintain a Ukraine. I'm at a lost to figure out where the demand we 'do something' is coming from- just seems another CON attempt to put the President in a bad light for domestic political gain rather than a strong front to the rest of the world.

    Just a bit pathetic, but predictable...
    Im just playing devil's advocate here by inferring that we could lose international prestige/respect if we choose to do nothing while another country violates the same treaty we signed up for. Personally, Im a non-interventionist and I hope we stay out of it.

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    The Budapest Memorandum, if that is the document you mean, says the signatories must help the Ukraine before the UN and the country is not member of Nato.
    Yes, help the Ukraine. US is a signatory of that. Question is what faction leader is the true leader of the Ukraine right now. And Ukraine is part of many NATO programs. Ukraine provides peace keepers for NATO lead operations, see Iraq and Afghanistan. Ukrainian military is educated in the structures of NATO militaries and have been for the last 4 years taking part in joint exercises. NATO hasn't offered full membership (that unbreakable guarantee) but NATO still has the offer on the table for Ukraine to join. Ukraine's former leadership refused to join NATO a few years back due to his Russian ties.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    Its a global market and their is plenty of pressure the EU can administer in regards to Russia's economy. Not a game anyone wants to play.
    It's not a global market for Europe. France, Germany and the rest get the large majority of their natural gas from Russia. Russia cuts the pipelines off.. you are **** out of luck. Prices will rise by 300% plus over night. A shaky EU economy goes from semi-stable to down right depression. Those are the facts.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    It's not a global market for Europe. France, Germany and the rest get the large majority of their natural gas from Russia. Russia cuts the pipelines off.. you are **** out of luck. Prices will rise by 300% plus over night. A shaky EU economy goes from semi-stable to down right depression. Those are the facts.
    Very true.

    There is, however, one additional fact: If Russia cuts the pipe lines, then the Russians dont make sales and their revenues plummet. I have a feeling that the only think keeping the Russian recovery going is gas and oil sales.

    And.... the Russians are not like OPEC in their embargo. Most OPEC members had enormous cash reserves and small ethnically homogenous populations that got along with each other. The Russians probably dont have cash reserves and some of their natural gas comes from Islamic areas- whose non Russian locals may get upset if Moscow orders their source of revenue cut off.

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Very true.

    There is, however, one additional fact: If Russia cuts the pipe lines, then the Russians dont make sales and their revenues plummet. I have a feeling that the only think keeping the Russian recovery going is gas and oil sales.

    And.... the Russians are not like OPEC in their embargo. Most OPEC members had enormous cash reserves and small ethnically homogenous populations that got along with each other. The Russians probably dont have cash reserves and some of their natural gas comes from Islamic areas- whose non Russian locals may get upset if Moscow orders their source of revenue cut off.
    But who does it hurt first? Not Russia. EU will blink first.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    It's not a global market for Europe. France, Germany and the rest get the large majority of their natural gas from Russia. Russia cuts the pipelines off.. you are **** out of luck. Prices will rise by 300% plus over night. A shaky EU economy goes from semi-stable to down right depression. Those are the facts.

    and Russia will sustain itself how?
    ‘This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years.’ (Ferdinand Foch. After the Treaty of Versailles, 1919).

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    It's not a global market for Europe. France, Germany and the rest get the large majority of their natural gas from Russia. Russia cuts the pipelines off.. you are **** out of luck. Prices will rise by 300% plus over night. A shaky EU economy goes from semi-stable to down right depression. Those are the facts.
    And where does Russia get its cash whilst going into a costly war with Ukraine?

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