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Thread: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    This is how WWII began.

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Graffias View Post
    The worst thing that can happen at this point for Ukraine is that the provisional government decides to take military action. I think Putin's strategy is that he hopes Ukraine launches an assault to try to drive the Russians out of the Crimea, and Russia can then use this as a casus belli to occupy the rest of the country and reinstate Yanukovych. Putin is counting on the West not intervening.
    Good, nor should they. This will end quicker, with less loss of life if the US at least tends to its own business. Russia can handle this.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    I don't know if you are blaming Obama, but Americans are increasingly disinterested in spending blood and treasure in places around the world that aren't a threat to us.
    We convinced Ukraine to surrender their nuclear weapons under the belief that we'd defend them in the case of a Russian attack.

    Being hegemon is a responsibility that shouldn't be taken lightly. Allowing major regional powers to invade their neighbors is bad for everyone.

    And Russia is doing nothing different than the US has done so many times around the world.
    It's been some time since America has engaged in a war of conquest. Something like a century.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Sanctions are an act of war, at least an invitation, of themselves. I don't think Putin has designs on Europe. This should be let alone.
    You don't think Putin has designs on Europe?

    He's invading Ukraine as we speak. I suspect the Baltic states to be next.

    The Russians peoples are Europeans, just like their Slavic brothers in the Czech Republic or Croatia. I don't know where you get any idea to the contrary from.

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    This is how WWII began.
    Are you predicting WW111? Do you think Putin has designs beyond the Ukraine?
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    Chechnya was too extreme Muslim. Georgia had East Timor and the other place which were predominantly Russian thereby the lands also belong to the Russian government irrelevant of Georgia's integrity. Now Ukrainian Crimea is also predominantly Russian thereby it too belongs to the Russian government.

    Are we not finding excuses always not to help these places? Then wonder why they work with Russians and sometimes against our interests?

    Ukraine is in crossroads. It has either Russia or EU to join. If not helped when needed they could fall and then work with Russia against our interests.
    You are thinking of South Ossetia and Abkhazia which are culturally distinct from Georgia fought wars of independence from Georgia, and were ruled as defacto independent states from 1995 or so

    As for Crimea, I expect it will be declared independent from Ukraine and be given protection by Russia
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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It's difficult to dogmatically state what the Ukraine IS.
    No, it's not. It's in Eastern Europe.

    It has been voluntarily under Russian control,
    Actually, it was Russia. For several hundred years Kiev was central to Russian culture until the Mongol invasions, when the torch was passed to Novgorod.

    under the kingdom of Poland by conquest,
    Properly, under the Kingdom of Lithuania by conquest, held in that manner for nearly 200 years under the personal rule of the King of Poland and Lithuania, which would finally become the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

    All of which means nothing. The Ukraine, like all the Russias, is European.

    independent, under Russian control by force, briefly independent, and may come under control of Russia again by force. It's no traditional European country.[/QUOTE]

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Man of Context View Post
    We convinced Ukraine to surrender their nuclear weapons under the belief that we'd defend them in the case of a Russian attack.

    Being hegemon is a responsibility that shouldn't be taken lightly. Allowing major regional powers to invade their neighbors is bad for everyone.



    It's been some time since America has engaged in a war of conquest. Something like a century.



    You don't think Putin has designs on Europe?

    He's invading Ukraine as we speak. I suspect the Baltic states to be next.

    The Russians peoples are Europeans, just like their Slavic brothers in the Czech Republic or Croatia. I don't know where you get any idea to the contrary from.
    I would prefer that we STOP making such assurances and that all countries have nukes, or no countries have them and would prefer that no country have them.

    I don't approve of US hegemony, and disagree with you that the US hasn't been involved in wars of conquest, right up to the present.

    No, I don't think Putin has designs on Europe, and he's not in the Ukraine because he does. He's in the Ukraine because their was civil unrest, a toppling of the Ukrainian government and Russian ports and other assets are at risk, the country borders Russia and nobody likes an unstable country on their border, he's doing nothing that the US hasn't/wouldn't do and we should mind our own business! But I know you boys don't like being told that.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    You are thinking of South Ossetia and Abkhazia which are culturally distinct from Georgia fought wars of independence from Georgia, and were ruled as defacto independent states from 1995 or so

    As for Crimea, I expect it will be declared independent from Ukraine and be given protection by Russia
    Why exactly would Russia declare it independent? Remember that the whole pretext here is that old European notion that people of a certain nationality should share a single government, that same pretext which lead to a century of bloody European warfare.

    Ukraine is culturally Russian. Whether or not this ought to put them under the control of Moscow is the real question.

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Are you predicting WW111? Do you think Putin has designs beyond the Ukraine?
    Having the Ukraine is the difference between Russia being a top world power or not. It is that vital to Russia's overall unique power.

    Likely Putin would be happy with "just" it, which a bit like saying Germany would be happy with "just" France. The Ukraine is massive and with a huge population.

    No, I do not anticipate WW3 out of this because I do not expect the USA to do anything about it but bitch. What I anticipate happening is worldwide nuclear proliferation as counties are left with no other real choice for national self defense.

    I anticipate, to some degree, another arms race and another Cold War, plus militarization rather than demilitarization. An increase in terrorism.

    They made a terrible mistake giving up their nuclear weapons trusting the USA and Britain. They will effectively lose the most lucrative regions of their country as a result of such foolishness.
    Last edited by joko104; 03-02-14 at 11:39 AM.

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Man of Context View Post
    Why exactly would Russia declare it independent? Remember that the whole pretext here is that old European notion that people of a certain nationality should share a single government, that same pretext which lead to a century of bloody European warfare.

    Ukraine is culturally Russian. Whether or not this ought to put them under the control of Moscow is the real question.
    Historically Ukrainians liked killing Russians more than anyone else.

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