• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

In the Ukraine, a bunch of fire bombing, armed thugs took over the Democratically elected scumbag engineered by $5 billion USA dollars and CIA and NGOs infiltration. That, of course is interference and Russia, according to the agreement protects the Ukrainians. The thugs got Parliament to vote on many things absent the presence of the majority political party, and the same thing happened in the Crimea. Legerdemain will be reequired to portray that as OK in Kiev and really bad in Crimea. Count on th e"Mighty Wurlitzer" to make that happen and the morons won't even know unless I tell them. I think Putin is doing exactly the correct thing, for both Ukrainians and Russians because they are his neighbors. On a map it looks like they are thousands and thousands of miles away from the USA and none of our CIA's business.
 
Erod said:
No kidding.

Obama probably bought a board game of Risk to plot his strategy on this.
Click to expand...


He'd have better luck playing Axis and Allies using the infantry push mechanic. ;)

Tim-
 
Ben K. said:
Ukraine pleads for Britain and US to come to its rescue as Russia accused of 'invasion' - Telegraph

Paramilitary proxy warfare or will this continue to escalate?[/FONT]
[/FONT][/COLOR]
Click to expand...

There is a flip side to this issue, that complicates things. The leaders of the Ukraine reneged on an agreement with the EU that there would be free and fair elections. Some of the leaders are some of the same oligarchs that looted Ukraine's treasury, and they want power so they can keep the loot they robbed from the people. In that respect, they are not any different from the former government. Corruption runs rampant in all factions in the Ukraine.
 
CanadaJohn said:
What would that "assistance" consist of if not troops or weapons? An Obama happy face tee shirt?
Click to expand...

Seeing the bad boy sits on the Security Council the help would probably be very limited, indeed. But with the Europeans lined up behind them, the Ukrainian can become heros.
 
I dont know about that whole intervention thing. Have we drawn any clearly defined red lines? Because you know...once THOSE are in place...then its agreed we MUST act...
 
The UN is pretty toothless when it comes to Russia, most especially since Russia, with veto power, will vote no to any UN interference in their dealings with Ukraine. But Fox News this morning, via an anonymous source, said the Security Council does have the request from Ukraine and is considering it.

But given that the UN most likely will not be able to act, we would have to proceed without UN blessings. Does anybody here want us to do that?
 
It seems to me that Russia is beefing up it's presence in Crimea because it has substantial assets and interests there. Russian military bases dot the Crimean peninsula. Who knows what organizations the people who nabbed the airport and ministry are, but until that becomes clear, we should not resort to too much speculation.

It doesn't seem like an invasion is taking place, and the territorial incursions are designed to secure Russian assets that Ukraine has allowed to operate via legal lease etc. So I don't think the context of the treaty has reached a tipping point. The gov't in Kiev can diffuse the situation if it shows some leadership and avoids provocation itself. This is something to watch carefully, however.
 
Ben K. said:
The EU didn't sign the treaty. And what future value is there to non-proliferation treaty's if they don't last a decade in practice?
Click to expand...

Yes, my point is no one in the EU should act all shocked as if this sort of thing just doesn't happen when Modern European History is chok-a-block with treaties that don't last any longer than May Flowers.

But on to the main point, what does the treaty obligate the US, France or China to do exactly?

For that matter has the Russian Bear crossed the Eastern Border?

As far as anyone can verify, key word there, this 'verify', the armed men are locals in some sort of ad-hoc self defense force.

Now on the future value, as an Irishman you should know the history of your nation and the rest of Europe. Treaties are worth what they are as long as they are of value to the signatories, soon as that changes then a fast as a Hooker's smile fades so to does the adherence.

So far the treaty is still being honored. But do you think the USofA should pour combat units into the Ukraine if the Russians cross the Eastern Border and seize half of the Ukraine?
 
Treaty or not treaty the EU shoudl be taking the lead on this considering its the EU that Ukraine wants to remain with! Time for Merkel and company to validate this union of theirs.
 
Higgins86 said:
Treaty or not treaty the EU shoudl be taking the lead on this considering its the EU that Ukraine wants to remain with! Time for Merkel and company to validate this union of theirs.
Click to expand...


Exactly what does the EU have that would give Russia pause? The first thing the Russians would do is cut off the natural gas, and then it's over before it even started, whatever "it" was going to be.
 
humbolt said:
Exactly what does the EU have that would give Russia pause? The first thing the Russians would do is cut off the natural gas, and then it's over before it even started, whatever "it" was going to be.
Click to expand...

25 Nato members in Europe which would give Russia plenty to think about.
 
Higgins86 said:
25 Nato members in Europe which would give Russia plenty to think about.
Click to expand...

Agreed. However, they would be looking for the US too. We aren't there, and by all indications, our president has no stomach for it. If the EU can herd it's NATO cats together, that would be a first. I hope they do because I don't think we're going to anything other than express grave concern at the UN. Hopefully, the situation will cool down before anything more serious happens. I have my doubts. Putin wants the Crimea if he can get it without too much fuss.
 
joG said:
Why should the UK or USA take action? The Germans, Poles and French took the lead and talked bravery into the opposition's hearts. This is not a US responsibility. Of course the US and UK should help its allies. That goes without saying. But they must not take the lead.
Click to expand...

US signed an agreement with Ukraine to give up nukes in the 1990s for defense help. Also Ukraine is a semi-member of NATO.
 
joG said:
Why should the UK or USA take action? The Germans, Poles and French took the lead and talked bravery into the opposition's hearts. This is not a US responsibility. Of course the US and UK should help its allies. That goes without saying. But they must not take the lead.
Click to expand...
If we wanted to take action what would we do? Russia has the military. Russia has the geography. All we have is obama. He is like the dog crap one accidentally steps into.
 
Higgins86 said:
25 Nato members in Europe which would give Russia plenty to think about.
Click to expand...

Not really.. cut of Natural Gas and Europeans are useless. Only good thing the EU has going is it's getting warmer. :cool:
 
Hicup said:
Boy what a mess for ole Obama and Co. Will Hillary step up and say something? Will Russia yet again say suck it to Obama and the USA? Clearly this is the year of Putin, and Obama looks like a dolt. The boy can organize a fantastic community, and heck raise money, but man, this guy cannot lead and is in way over his head.

Tim-
Click to expand...
Or Obama, as promised, is being "more flexible" after the election. Obama tells Russia's Medvedev more flexibility after election | Reuters
 
Higgins86 said:
Treaty or not treaty the EU shoudl be taking the lead on this considering its the EU that Ukraine wants to remain with! Time for Merkel and company to validate this union of theirs.
Click to expand...
The Europeans, like Obama, will do nothing. They have enjoyed a couple of generations of relative peace and freedom but they have lost any idea of how to protect the two.
 
Grant said:
The Europeans, like Obama, will do nothing. They have enjoyed a couple of generations of relative peace and freedom but they have lost any idea of how to protect the two.
Click to expand...

Europe and America came together for the Bosnian war don't forget that
 
Obama is weak. The world knows this. Putin has been kicking his ass all over the school yard and taking his lunch money. This jerk is killing us. This would not have happened if Bush was in office. Oh, I can't wait for some dumb liberal to post about how strong Obama is and that Putin will back down. C'mon libs, tell us how Obama will save the day! He sucks.
 
Governor Palin, you were right and the liberals were wrong. Please come and save us from Obama:

After the Russian Army invaded the nation of Georgia, Senator Obama's reaction was one of indecision and moral equivalence, the kind of response that would only encourage Russia's Putin to invade Ukraine next.​
 
austrianecon said:
Not really.. cut of Natural Gas and Europeans are useless. Only good thing the EU has going is it's getting warmer. :cool:
Click to expand...

Its a global market and their is plenty of pressure the EU can administer in regards to Russia's economy. Not a game anyone wants to play.
 
austrianecon said:
US signed an agreement with Ukraine to give up nukes in the 1990s for defense help. Also Ukraine is a semi-member of NATO.
Click to expand...

The Budapest Memorandum, if that is the document you mean, says the signatories must help the Ukraine before the UN and the country is not member of Nato.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom