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Court Rules Schools Allowed To Ban American Flag In Order To Make Schools Safer

Few are supportive of gang-related violence but many students also rebel against authority if it is not conducted properly. My experience was that I paid more attention to teachers who made the class interesting and found those who relied on authority and discipline to be inferior at their jobs.

This was a call for administrators, who are even more charged with creating a safe learning environment. Anything else above is a side-discussion. So, for the side discussion, yes, I can make a course interesting to my students (and I largely heard that I did), nevertheless, I am sure you agree that ensuring fights do not break out in a classroom is probably more important than whether or not you thought the material was interesting for that hour.
 
Don't you just love the putrid smell of multiculturalism rotting out in the fields? American flags are now seen as a divisive symbol at American public schools:


Today’s Dariano v. Morgan Hill Unified School Dist. (9th Cir. Feb. 27, 2014) upholds a California high school’s decision to forbid students from wearing American flag T-shirts on Cinco de Mayo. . . .

At least one party to this appeal, student M.D., wore American flag clothing to school on Cinco de Mayo 2009. M.D. was approached by a male student who, in the words of the district court, “shoved a Mexican flag at him and said something in Spanish expressing anger at [M.D.’s] clothing.

In the aftermath of the students’ departure from school, they received numerous threats from other students. D.G. was threatened by text message on May 6, and the same afternoon, received a threatening phone call from a caller saying he was outside of D.G.’s home. D.M. and M.D. were likewise threatened with violence, and a student at Live Oak overheard a group of classmates saying that some gang members would come down from San Jose to “take care of” the students. Because of these threats, the students did not go to school on May 7.

We hold that school officials, namely Rodriguez, did not act unconstitutionally, under either the First Amendment or Article I, § 2(a) of the California Constitution, in asking students to turn their shirts inside out, remove them, or leave school for the day with an excused absence in order to prevent substantial disruption or violence at school.​

This is a classic “heckler’s veto” — thugs threatening to attack the speaker, and government officials suppressing the speech to prevent such violence. “Heckler’s vetoes” are generally not allowed under First Amendment law; the government should generally protect the speaker and threaten to arrest the thugs, not suppress the speaker’s speech. But under Tinker‘s “forecast substantial disruption” test, such a heckler’s veto is indeed allowed.​

If anyone ever doubted that the Mexicans were here as a tool of the America hating far left, that doubt can now be put aside.
 
You're right that it demonstrates a greater failing to create a safe learning environment. That being said, I personally favor law and order over freedom of expression. Safety, authority, and discipline first.

If large numbers of them were doing it to incite reaction at a school which we have reasons to believe would spark a terrible incident, I think we ought to consider that restriction. Order, authority, discipline, safety first.

"They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
 
If anyone ever doubted that the Mexicans were here as a tool of the America hating far left, that doubt can now be put aside.

Yeppers, that's it alright. The far left has brought Mexicans here, starting, oh, I don't know, sometime before the Mexican/American war, perhaps as early as the Mexican revolution, as a tool for the purpose of hating America. That's it, all right, all doubt can be put aside.


No, what the school should have done is acted pro-actively, and not re-actively. They should have had a lesson ahead of time, perhaps an assembly, on the meaning of Cinco de Mayo, and how it really isn't Mexican independence day or a Mexican plot to take over the US. Had they done that, then the students would not have seen any necessity of wearing flags to (take your pick) 1. show their patriotism, or 2. deliberately try to provoke ethnic confrontation.

Of course, had the administration done so, then there would have been no news story.
 
Don't...allowed.
Would you be as upset if the shirt had been something other than an American flag?
Seems that the bulk of precedent says that school officials have a duty to ensure a suitable learning environment which supersedes students' right to self expression. Iirc, that has been well established by case law on multiple occasions.

What about the shirt being an American flag should have caused the court to overturn precedent?
 
Cinco de Mayo should be an American celebration as well as a Mexican one. The students should have been taught what the occasion was all about, then perhaps the juvenile attempt at jingoism could have been avoided.

Napoleon III of France invaded Mexico with the intention of taking it over and then invading the USA from that platform. Since we were in the midst of the Civil war at the time, his plan had a pretty good chance of success.

The French were defeated by Benito Juarez and his forces at the Battle of Puebla on the 5 of May, which is what the day commemorates.

Obviously, some students saw it as some sort of intrusion of Mexican culture into the "real America" or some such nonsense. Mexico and the USA should celebrate that date together.

It is a much bigger holiday in the US as it is in Mexico. Most people here don't know why 5 de Mayo is celebrated.
 
"They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Says the guy who supports warrantless wiretapping on the basis of national security (I do too, by the way).
 
It's free speech. Would you also oppose people wearing a Mexican flag on The 4th of July?

The situation is important to consider. This was at a school, which are normally not in session on the 4th of July. Therefore, the situation is clearly different in many respects.

Now IF we were to have this hypothetical school that didn't observe the 4th of July holiday (yes, I'm considering summer school which is still closed on the 4th of July), I would think that it's within the school's right to disallow the Mexican flag. It's a dress code. I don't know about your job, but I can't wear anything I want to work. Welcome to real life.
 
I thought Michelle Pfeiffer and James Belushi solved all these problems in the California public schools.
 
Says the guy who supports warrantless wiretapping on the basis of national security (I do too, by the way).

Yeah? Got a quote? Thaaaanks!
 
The situation is important to consider. This was at a school, which are normally not in session on the 4th of July. Therefore, the situation is clearly different in many respects.

Now IF we were to have this hypothetical school that didn't observe the 4th of July holiday (yes, I'm considering summer school which is still closed on the 4th of July), I would think that it's within the school's right to disallow the Mexican flag. It's a dress code. I don't know about your job, but I can't wear anything I want to work. Welcome to real life.

The government cant suppress free speech. Period
 
The government cant suppress free speech. Period

Schools can set dress codes. Most of them don't allow shirts with vulgar language, isn't that free speech?

They should have let him wear it. Then let the Mexicans kick his ass.
 
Doesn't wearing a flag as clothing violate the flag code?

Only if you're a liberal.

Abby Hoffman, a liberal yippie from the 60's, got the crap beat out of him and arrested almost everytime he opened his mouth. He had to go into hiding.

06222005-abbieflagshirt.jpg


Then, on the other hand, the people who hated Abby Hoffman for "wearing a shirt made out of an American flag," absolutely LOVED Roy Rogers and Dale Evans, two American icons that represented God, guns, apple pie, patriotism, rightwing hypocracy and cutesy Shirley Temple idealism. Roy Rogers regularly wore shirts that were representative of the American flag. In fact, I recall see Roy Rogers in a shirt not much different than the shirt Abby wore.

Myself, I'm split on my opinion. I'm the kinda guy that would wear the American flag on Cinco De Mayo. Screw Cinco De Mayo. This is America. Here we celebrate the 4th of July. If you wanna make the 5th of May a holiday for Mexican independence, fine. Carry your ass back to Mexico and have at it.

On the other hand, I understand the school's decision to forego principle for the sake of student safety. But I think the Principal was a *****. He should have sent the gang banger's that had a problem with the American flag home. Therein lies the problem.

I do believe the guy trying to instigate trouble is an asshole but he DOES have a right to his free-speech too.
 
If anyone ever doubted that the Mexicans were here as a tool of the America hating far left, that doubt can now be put aside.

I thick their mostly hear for money and a better life like the rest of us or are ancestors rather then a conspiracy on the part of the left to ban American flags at a school
 
The government cant suppress free speech. Period
Of course. Free Speech is a categorical right.
We're all free to yell, "FIRE!" in a crowded theater, publish malicious lies about other people, and make dire threats to other life and limb.
There's no way that govt van suppress free speech. That right is categorical and absolute.

But perhaps we should make some exceptions and not allow ALL speech.

:shrug:
 
What about this case should have made the court overturn precedent regarding the relationship between students' freedom of expression and administrators' duty to maintain a suitable learning environment?

Anyone have any thoughts about that question?
 
That would be impossible, you didn't join until 2009. Bush wasn't President then.

It's not impossible. All he would have to do is make a remark about the concept of warrantless tapping and civil liberties.

For instance, in a thread specifically asking if warrantless wiretapping was necessary, our defender of liberties in the face of security threats said:

I don't feel as if my civil rights have been infringed, if someone listens in on my phone conversations. One, because I feel like a phone conversation is no more private than talking to someone sitting in a resturant. Two, they'll be real disappointed at what they hear.

However, I will feel like my civil rights have been infringed on if I'm locked up for political reasons, or because I'm accused of breaking some political correctness law.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...tended-beyond-wiretapping.html#post1058130009

Emphasis is mine.

In a thread regarding the Obama administration wishing a lawsuit over warrantless wiretapping to be dismissed due to exposing past uses of the program, our defender of liberty in the face of security threats said this:'

This is a smart decision. Sometimes, it's going to be necessary to listen in on phone calls. Our national security depends on that ability.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...tion-toss-wiretap-lawsuit.html#post1058339417

Furthermore, our defender of liberty decided that warrantless wiretapping was responsible for crippling the KKK, and was used to expose communist operatives, therefore it is indeed necessary.
 
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What about this case should have made the court overturn precedent regarding the relationship between students' freedom of expression and administrators' duty to maintain a suitable learning environment?

Anyone have any thoughts about that question?

High school students are minors. They do not have freedom of expression.
 
Of course. Free Speech is a categorical right.
We're all free to yell, "FIRE!" in a crowded theater, publish malicious lies about other people, and make dire threats to other life and limb.
There's no way that govt van suppress free speech. That right is categorical and absolute.

But perhaps we should make some exceptions and not allow ALL speech.

:shrug:

Schools have also been given a great deal more leeway in restricting freedom of expression, but not in their ability to punish a person for expression.
 
On it's face, this whole thing is quite disturbing to me. Fundamentally the idea that an American school would disallow American students from displaying an American flag under threat of violence from Mexican and Mexican-American students is abhorrent. It's upside down. My immediate reaction is disappointment, anger, even revulsion. It smacks of appeasing thugs. Thugs...not Mexicans. Their nationality or culture is irrelevant to me at this point, the school allowed thugs to dictate policy that day.

I understand their absolute duty to first and foremost maintain a safe environment for students. I also understand that there is a history of white American students at the school provoking student of Mexican heritage on Cinco de Mayo. But allowing one side to display a flag (on a non-American holiday) and mandating that another side not display a flag, all because of a fear of confrontation and violence is just wrong. They should have disallowed any form of celebration on school property. Apply the dress code universally if you are going to apply it all. And don't allow thugs to dictate policy. If you can identify a potentially disruptive student, deal with them as you would any other. And no doubt there was a fear that the white American students were more than ready to respond if they were confronted by their Mexican counterparts.

Personally I think wearing an American flag as a shirt is distasteful and classless. Especially if you are doing so in order to prove your patriotism or provoke another. Personally I couldn't care less about Mexican Americans celebrating Cinco de Mayo. It doesn't affect how I feel about my country in any way. It doesn't diminish it, it doesn't threaten it, it does nothing. The fact that the white students felt compelled to pin their "American Pride" on their chest and hoist American flags and where American flag shirts and chant "USA USA!" is just a sign of their immaturity. So much machismo, so little common sense.
 
On it's face, this whole thing is quite disturbing to me. Fundamentally the idea that an American school would disallow American students from displaying an American flag under threat of violence from Mexican and Mexican-American students is abhorrent. It's upside down. My immediate reaction is disappointment, anger, even revulsion. It smacks of appeasing thugs. Thugs...not Mexicans. Their nationality or culture is irrelevant to me at this point, the school allowed thugs to dictate policy that day.

I understand their absolute duty to first and foremost maintain a safe environment for students. I also understand that there is a history of white American students at the school provoking student of Mexican heritage on Cinco de Mayo. But allowing one side to display a flag (on a non-American holiday) and mandating that another side not display a flag, all because of a fear of confrontation and violence is just wrong. They should have disallowed any form of celebration on school property. Apply the dress code universally if you are going to apply it all. And don't allow thugs to dictate policy. If you can identify a potentially disruptive student, deal with them as you would any other. And no doubt there was a fear that the white American students were more than ready to respond if they were confronted by their Mexican counterparts.

Personally I think wearing an American flag as a shirt is distasteful and classless. Especially if you are doing so in order to prove your patriotism or provoke another. Personally I couldn't care less about Mexican Americans celebrating Cinco de Mayo. It doesn't affect how I feel about my country in any way. It doesn't diminish it, it doesn't threaten it, it does nothing. The fact that the white students felt compelled to pin their "American Pride" on their chest and hoist American flags and where American flag shirts and chant "USA USA!" is just a sign of their immaturity. So much machismo, so little common sense.

Taking issue with the administrator's judgement is a legitimate beef, imho.
I don't know the details of the situation and I have never been a high school administrator.
My initial reaction is that there may have been a better way to resolve the issue.

But, because of what has come before, I can't fault the court for rendering the judgment it did.
 
Taking issue with the administrator's judgement is a legitimate beef, imho.
I don't know the details of the situation and I have never been a high school administrator.
My initial reaction is that there may have been a better way to resolve the issue.

But, because of what has come before, I can't fault the court for rendering the judgment it did.

I fully appreciate their desire to ensure the safety of the students. I do not agree with how they went about it though. Unfortunately there is an entirely different discussion occurring now about this incident. One geared towards vilifying Mexicans, vilifying liberals, and making this about one political persuasion "hating" America. To me that is just stupid and baseless.

I also believe I should have proof read my post before I hit the "post quick reply" button. Ugh.
 
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