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Thread: Court Rules Schools Allowed To Ban American Flag In Order To Make Schools Safer

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    Re: Court Rules Schools Allowed To Ban American Flag In Order To Make Schools Safer

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    This is a freedom of expression issue to me. It is not justifiable for the school to claim that such a thing as wearing the American flag on clothing is going to honestly cause a "race war" to any reasonable person unless the staff of the school allowed the school to reach that level of lack of discipline/racial(ethnic) tension to begin with. It does not matter what the students' intent for wearing the flag clothing was, it should be allowed.

    That being said, if there was more to what actually caused the student(s) to get expelled than just wearing the flag, then that makes it a different matter. But the school still should not be allowed to ban clothing such as wearing a flag shirt to school just to appease other groups of students. For it to reach such a level, there is a major problem with the school atmosphere that banning clothing will not solve.
    You're right that it demonstrates a greater failing to create a safe learning environment. That being said, I personally favor law and order over freedom of expression. Safety, authority, and discipline first.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Court Rules Schools Allowed To Ban American Flag In Order To Make Schools Safer

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It's free speech. Would you also oppose people wearing a Mexican flag on The 4th of July?
    If large numbers of them were doing it to incite reaction at a school which we have reasons to believe would spark a terrible incident, I think we ought to consider that restriction. Order, authority, discipline, safety first.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Court Rules Schools Allowed To Ban American Flag In Order To Make Schools Safer

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    You're right that it demonstrates a greater failing to create a safe learning environment. That being said, I personally favor law and order over freedom of expression. Safety, authority, and discipline first.
    Where does teaching and respect for others come in?

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    Re: Court Rules Schools Allowed To Ban American Flag In Order To Make Schools Safer

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Where does teaching and respect for others come in?
    Everything has its limits. Faith in man's good nature only goes so far. Personally, I have far less faith in humans than most people, so I am being exceedingly generous to the notion that I would be wary of restricting clothing choices. However, if for some reason it permeates the culture of violence, then restricting its access may be needed. We restrict a great many things in the school due to safety concerns, including gang-related violence.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Court Rules Schools Allowed To Ban American Flag In Order To Make Schools Safer

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Everything has its limits. Faith in man's good nature only goes so far. Personally, I have far less faith in humans than most people, so I am being exceedingly generous to the notion that I would be wary of restricting clothing choices. However, if for some reason it permeates the culture of violence, then restricting its access may be needed. We restrict a great many things in the school due to safety concerns, including gang-related violence.
    Few are supportive of gang-related violence but many students also rebel against authority if it is not conducted properly. My experience was that I paid more attention to teachers who made the class interesting and found those who relied on authority and discipline to be inferior at their jobs.

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    Re: Court Rules Schools Allowed To Ban American Flag In Order To Make Schools Safer

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Few are supportive of gang-related violence but many students also rebel against authority if it is not conducted properly. My experience was that I paid more attention to teachers who made the class interesting and found those who relied on authority and discipline to be inferior at their jobs.
    This was a call for administrators, who are even more charged with creating a safe learning environment. Anything else above is a side-discussion. So, for the side discussion, yes, I can make a course interesting to my students (and I largely heard that I did), nevertheless, I am sure you agree that ensuring fights do not break out in a classroom is probably more important than whether or not you thought the material was interesting for that hour.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Court Rules Schools Allowed To Ban American Flag In Order To Make Schools Safer

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Don't you just love the putrid smell of multiculturalism rotting out in the fields? American flags are now seen as a divisive symbol at American public schools:


    Today’s Dariano v. Morgan Hill Unified School Dist. (9th Cir. Feb. 27, 2014) upholds a California high school’s decision to forbid students from wearing American flag T-shirts on Cinco de Mayo. . . .

    At least one party to this appeal, student M.D., wore American flag clothing to school on Cinco de Mayo 2009. M.D. was approached by a male student who, in the words of the district court, “shoved a Mexican flag at him and said something in Spanish expressing anger at [M.D.’s] clothing.

    In the aftermath of the students’ departure from school, they received numerous threats from other students. D.G. was threatened by text message on May 6, and the same afternoon, received a threatening phone call from a caller saying he was outside of D.G.’s home. D.M. and M.D. were likewise threatened with violence, and a student at Live Oak overheard a group of classmates saying that some gang members would come down from San Jose to “take care of” the students. Because of these threats, the students did not go to school on May 7.

    We hold that school officials, namely Rodriguez, did not act unconstitutionally, under either the First Amendment or Article I, 2(a) of the California Constitution, in asking students to turn their shirts inside out, remove them, or leave school for the day with an excused absence in order to prevent substantial disruption or violence at school.

    This is a classic “heckler’s veto” — thugs threatening to attack the speaker, and government officials suppressing the speech to prevent such violence. “Heckler’s vetoes” are generally not allowed under First Amendment law; the government should generally protect the speaker and threaten to arrest the thugs, not suppress the speaker’s speech. But under Tinker‘s “forecast substantial disruption” test, such a heckler’s veto is indeed allowed.
    If anyone ever doubted that the Mexicans were here as a tool of the America hating far left, that doubt can now be put aside.

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    Re: Court Rules Schools Allowed To Ban American Flag In Order To Make Schools Safer

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    You're right that it demonstrates a greater failing to create a safe learning environment. That being said, I personally favor law and order over freedom of expression. Safety, authority, and discipline first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    If large numbers of them were doing it to incite reaction at a school which we have reasons to believe would spark a terrible incident, I think we ought to consider that restriction. Order, authority, discipline, safety first.
    "They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Court Rules Schools Allowed To Ban American Flag In Order To Make Schools Safer

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray410 View Post
    If anyone ever doubted that the Mexicans were here as a tool of the America hating far left, that doubt can now be put aside.
    Yeppers, that's it alright. The far left has brought Mexicans here, starting, oh, I don't know, sometime before the Mexican/American war, perhaps as early as the Mexican revolution, as a tool for the purpose of hating America. That's it, all right, all doubt can be put aside.


    No, what the school should have done is acted pro-actively, and not re-actively. They should have had a lesson ahead of time, perhaps an assembly, on the meaning of Cinco de Mayo, and how it really isn't Mexican independence day or a Mexican plot to take over the US. Had they done that, then the students would not have seen any necessity of wearing flags to (take your pick) 1. show their patriotism, or 2. deliberately try to provoke ethnic confrontation.

    Of course, had the administration done so, then there would have been no news story.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Court Rules Schools Allowed To Ban American Flag In Order To Make Schools Safer

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Don't...allowed.
    Would you be as upset if the shirt had been something other than an American flag?
    Seems that the bulk of precedent says that school officials have a duty to ensure a suitable learning environment which supersedes students' right to self expression. Iirc, that has been well established by case law on multiple occasions.

    What about the shirt being an American flag should have caused the court to overturn precedent?
    I may be wrong.

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