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Thread: Acidic ocean blamed for scallop die-off

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    Re: Acidic ocean blamed for scallop die-off

    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBY View Post
    Negative ions from salts in the ocean hydrolize in water to form more of the Hydroxide, or alkaline ion, thus a pH greater than 7.
    So then, the slightly lower salinity also moves it to lower pH.

    I believe as I was looking things up, the salinity is 33 for the area. The Pacific is 34 or 35. Still, it's just a minor change.

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    Re: Acidic ocean blamed for scallop die-off

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    We are putting the carbon from 20 million years ago back. I wonder if you know what Earth was like then. It was a steaming jungle from pole to pole.
    Which reduced the oceans ability to absorb CO2, hence more in the atmosphere.

    All the latest scientific literature agrees. CO2 lags temperature. However, we are putting it in the atmosphere faster than the ocean and plants can reabsorb it.

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    Re: Acidic ocean blamed for scallop die-off

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Planar View Post
    Can you accept a pH change of 1, because of CO2 in the atmosphere? I cannot. I could accept 0.1, but not 1.0.
    from what i've read, it has dropped from 8.2 to 8.1 since industrialization began. my guess is that it will continue to equilibrate. CO2 + H2O equals carbonic acid, so if you keep putting CO2 up in the air, the oean will certainly absorb it. how low it will get, i can't really speculate. i'm a molecular / microbiologist; climate science is not my area of expertise.

    the media that we equilibrate ends up with a pH in the mid 7s, but our media is quite different than an ocean. different buffering agents and whatnot.

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    Re: Acidic ocean blamed for scallop die-off

    That is correct.
    Also, a change of pH of 0.1 does not affect the Hydrogen/Hydroxide concentration as a direct prortion, but a logarithmic one.
    So going down to 6.9 from 7.0 is a greater change in conc. than 6.9 to 6.8.
    A logarithmic curve/graph would show this, but I'm just not that good on computer tech .
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Planar View Post
    So then, the slightly lower salinity also moves it to lower pH.

    I believe as I was looking things up, the salinity is 33 for the area. The Pacific is 34 or 35. Still, it's just a minor change.
    Physics is Phun

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    Re: Acidic ocean blamed for scallop die-off

    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBY View Post
    That is correct.
    Also, a change of pH of 0.1 does not affect the Hydrogen/Hydroxide concentration as a direct prortion, but a logarithmic one.
    So going down to 6.9 from 7.0 is a greater change in conc. than 6.9 to 6.8.
    A logarithmic curve/graph would show this, but I'm just not that good on computer tech .
    I'm completely aware of the log nature. That's why I say a pH change of 1 is ridiculous to believe it is caused by CO2, that it has to be something else.

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    Re: Acidic ocean blamed for scallop die-off

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    from what i've read, it has dropped from 8.2 to 8.1 since industrialization began. my guess is that it will continue to equilibrate. CO2 + H2O equals carbonic acid, so if you keep putting CO2 up in the air, the oean will certainly absorb it. how low it will get, i can't really speculate. i'm a molecular / microbiologist; climate science is not my area of expertise.

    the media that we equilibrate ends up with a pH in the mid 7s, but our media is quite different than an ocean. different buffering agents and whatnot.
    Always great to hear of Chemistry in the real world.
    If you work in the mid 7s with pH, I would hypothesize you are working with blood.
    Teaching buffering and the common-ion effect, on top of Equilibrium reactions, was quite the challenge enough with students using ICE tables.
    But, they did better here than on difficult Kinetics using Calculus .
    Physics is Phun

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    Re: Acidic ocean blamed for scallop die-off

    I would hypothesize it is a combination, as most things are in solution.
    pH going down is a result of hydroxide going down or hydronium going up, or both.
    It is now the job of the scientists involved in the field to find out why.

    We all saw the huge lowering of pH with acid rain and acid snow decades ago, trashing Lake Erie and some Rocky Mtn. lakes.
    The Lake is now healthy again .
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Planar View Post
    I'm completely aware of the log nature. That's why I say a pH change of 1 is ridiculous to believe it is caused by CO2, that it has to be something else.
    Physics is Phun

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    Re: Acidic ocean blamed for scallop die-off

    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBY View Post
    I would hypothesize it is a combination, as most things are in solution.
    pH going down is a result of hydroxide going down or hydronium going up, or both.
    It is now the job of the scientists involved in the field to find out why.

    We all saw the huge lowering of pH with acid rain and acid snow decades ago, trashing Lake Erie and some Rocky Mtn. lakes.
    The Lake is now healthy again .
    I wonder if because of the shipping density, if some ships didn't simply dump stuff that was illegal... Or, maybe just the sheer density of ship traffic.

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    Re: Acidic ocean blamed for scallop die-off

    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBY View Post
    Always great to hear of Chemistry in the real world.
    If you work in the mid 7s with pH, I would hypothesize you are working with blood.
    Teaching buffering and the common-ion effect, on top of Equilibrium reactions, was quite the challenge enough with students using ICE tables.
    But, they did better here than on difficult Kinetics using Calculus .
    sort of like blood; designed so that the cells think that they are still in the mouse. base media is called DMEM. we add serum and glutamine to it.

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    Re: Acidic ocean blamed for scallop die-off

    That's another good hypothesis to what caused the ion conc. to change.
    I'm also wondering if glacier melt is a further cause, but haven't looked at it too deeply.
    As well, with soluble pollutants going out to sea.

    I tend to stay away from the AGW-type threads because they just get out of hand.
    As a kid in the 60's, I was aghast at the notion of a garbage dump in the ocean off of New York City.
    As if this crap won't make its way into the Gulf stream.

    IMV, mandatory recycling of EVERYTHING would be a huge job-creator as well as unloading our dumps.
    And a gift to the Next Century .
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Planar View Post
    I wonder if because of the shipping density, if some ships didn't simply dump stuff that was illegal... Or, maybe just the sheer density of ship traffic.
    Physics is Phun

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