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Thread: Arizona anti-gay bill vetoed by governor

  1. #261
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    Re: Arizona anti-gay bill vetoed by governor

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    That's fair enough but unfortunately for you your government has been all about promoting the " American brand" of democracy worldwide for decades now and like it or not your actions are watched, admired and often judged by many people. American business profit worldwide, your media is everywhere as is your military so obviously anything you do will be subject to review whether you like it or not. Unlike many of my country men I still look to the US for guidance and with such pressing matters at hand like Syria and Ukraine and in my opinion the US is still the world leader.
    Normally I do not talk of politics in real life, and in fact, I avoid it, but yesterday a friend of mine asked me what the UN has ever done for the US and I honestly couldn't think of a thing. I could think of many things we have used it for to push our influence, but nothing that really helped the US. I always have an answer to everything, but in that instance I had nothing, and since that was his goal of course he smiled when I came up with a blank. Damn, that one is hard, and I still can't think of anything to use to answer the question. It completely stumps me on what it has done for the US. :

    I think it defies the spirit of this country to use our military as a world police. This country was never designed to be the world leader militarily. In fact, classical liberal philosophy doesn't even endorse a military, but a militia of free men. The reason for this was that classical liberalism was a philosophy of peace; a philosophy against war; a philosophy that endorsed the militia with the idea that it would cause men to only want to defend their homes and their communities. It was an attempt at non-interventionism; a country interested only in defending their lives and borders. An idea that while proven to fail, should have never left us entirely. We became as a country what classical liberals hated militarily and wanted no part of. We became a country that was interested in central power, and not the power of the people as they so endorsed. It is a shame that we have became the very thing they hated; the very thing they were fighting against; the very thing they died to get free of. I am ashamed of what the US has become, and my fight is to turn it back into what it was meant to be, and what will make the people free.

    We were never meant to be like Europe, and we never went out to gain your approval, and we shouldn't be doing it now.
    Last edited by Henrin; 02-27-14 at 03:15 AM.

  2. #262
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    Re: Arizona anti-gay bill vetoed by governor

    Quote Originally Posted by Juanita View Post
    My right as an American citizen to get services from a business that is open to the public...I am the public..
    right as an American citizen....what right is that?

    incorrect, ..how can you exercise a right, on another person's property.

  3. #263
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    Re: Arizona anti-gay bill vetoed by governor

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Normally I do not talk of politics in real life, and in fact, I avoid it, but yesterday a friend of mine asked me what the UN has ever done for the US and I honestly couldn't think of a thing. I could think of many things we have used it for to push our influence, but nothing that really helped the US. I always have an answer to everything, but in that instance I had nothing, and since that was his goal of course he smiled when I came up with a blank. Damn, that one is hard, and I still can't think of anything to use to answer the question. It completely stumps me on what it has done for the US. :

    I think it defies the spirit of this country to use our military as a world police. This country was never designed to be the world leader militarily. In fact, classical liberal philosophy doesn't even endorse a military, but a militia of free men. The reason for this was that classical liberalism was a philosophy of peace; a philosophy against war; a philosophy that endorsed the militia with the idea that it would cause men to only want to defend their homes and their communities. It was an attempt at non-interventionism; a country interested only in defending their lives and borders. An idea that while proven to fail, should have never left us entirely. We became as a country what classical liberals hated militarily and wanted no part of. We became a country that was interested in central power, and not the power of the people as they so endorsed. It is a shame that we have became the very thing they hated, the very thing they were fighting against, the very thing they died to get free of. I am ashamed of what the US, and my fight is to turn it back into what it was meant to be, and what will make the people free.

    We were never meant to be like Europe and we never went out to gain your approval, and we shouldn't be doing it now.
    But like all World powers before you ( the UK included) you took advantage of a crippled world after WW2 and not only improved it but became the sole remaining superpower. I respect your political stance but not even you can deny that the US is a superpower and dictates what goes on in many countries. Double edged sword of course because it means you are also judged in your domestic policy, for example I served in Iraq with the British army but was more than happy to go because the country we were supporting was the US which was a country I agreed with not just in foreign policy but domestically as well ( as a whole). However if the US wants to continue being the worlds leader it must act accordingly domestically. None of this helps you but unfortunately your political ideology is outdated and has no real place in the 21st century, your kind of thinking died with Pearl Harbour.
    ‘This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years.’ (Ferdinand Foch. After the Treaty of Versailles, 1919).

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    Re: Arizona anti-gay bill vetoed by governor

    Quote Originally Posted by Juanita View Post
    What do you mean when you state that all my rights are based on property? How?
    Every last right you will find is your property and they are all yours to do with as you please. All rights are based on body sovereignty and extend to everything in which the body acts upon. Therefore, all your rights, be that, the right to life, liberty, or estate, are born from property, or more to the point, the right to your own body and it's facilities. With this knowledge of your ownership of your person you will discover, as I have said, that if we were to go down the list of rights that all of them give you complete control and all of them are discriminatory in nature; in that, no one can act upon your person or property without your permission.

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    Re: Arizona anti-gay bill vetoed by governor

    Quote Originally Posted by Juanita View Post
    It IS a law....the law has been violated..
    it is federal law, however constitutional law is higher, laws cannot be made which violate the rights of people.

    by forcing a person to serve you.

    you violate his rights .....right to association, property, and commerce, these are recognized rights per the constitution.

    it violates the 13th amendment to the constitution ...that you cant force a citizen to serve another citizen, if no crime has been committed,...discrimination is not a crime.
    Last edited by Master PO; 02-27-14 at 03:30 AM.

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    Re: Arizona anti-gay bill vetoed by governor

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    yes it did but your comparing France to the USA, 100 years ago maybe France would of had that kind of impact globally but now they do not. The US is still the country I look at to set examples for us to follow, the US is the most powerful country worldwide and keeps the peace. I watch her movies, east some of her food, drink her drinks, anything the US does is scrutinized worldwide and we all take notice.
    I was actually quite taken there were still so many traditionalists among the people of France willing to protest something they found wrong. With such passion still burning with so many there still may be hope for France.

    Since you follow the U.S. with interest, look for a Supreme Court Case to show up in the near future. There was a couple in New Mexico who ran a small photography business. They are a young couple Mr. and Mrs. Huguenin.



    Nice looking couple don't you think? One day Mrs. Huguenin received a call from a woman who wanted the Huguenin's to take pictures of her "Same Sex Commitment Ceremony". Mrs. Huguenin responded by saying "The message a same-sex commitment ceremony communicates is not one I believe." and she respectfully declined the shoot. That cost her and her husband about 6 years of court battles because the lesbian couple filed a complaint with the New Mexico Human Rights Commission and charged them with violating the state's "sexual orientation discrimination" law. Commission ordered the Huguenins to pay $7,000 in fees to the lesbian couple. A New Mexico trial court upheld that ruling then they appealed and it went to the State Supreme Court and when I read the opinions of the justices I was floored. Justice Richard C. Bosson, asserted that while the Huguenins are being forced by the court to compromise the commandments of God, everyone must make concessions in life over matters that violate their conscience. He outlined that the Huguenins may freely live out their faith privately, but when it comes to running a public business, they will have to “pay the price” and check their Christian convictions at the door. After their opinions, especially Justice Bosson's this case has been petitioned to be heard at the U.S. Supreme Court to affirm to the nation that businesses have the right to conduct commerce in accordance with their faith. Because truly this is a violation of this couples 1st Amendment rights and if I know the Scotus like I think I do, this case isn't going to even pass muster with Justice Kennedy who is often the deciding vote. You see these state/local sexual orientation laws are nothing like the civil rights laws of the 60's. They are very broad and very subjective to interpretation. And I think Justice Bosson's opinion even though he may not like it will be what ends up stopping the trumping of one's rights over another.

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    Re: Arizona anti-gay bill vetoed by governor

    Quote Originally Posted by Juanita View Post
    My right as an American citizen to get services from a business that is open to the public...I am the public..
    That is not a right, in fact, it violates rights. You do not have the right to the service of your fellow human beings.

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    Re: Arizona anti-gay bill vetoed by governor

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    That is not a right, in fact, it violates rights. You do not have the right to the service of your fellow human beings.
    nothing can be a right that places a burden or cost on another citizen.

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    Re: Arizona anti-gay bill vetoed by governor

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    nothing can be a right that places a burden or cost on another citizen.
    Indeed, and in fact, it is the aggression itself that makes so very clear it is not a right in which our opponents speak. To claim that initiation of the use or threat of violence against the person or property of anyone else is a right is absurd, and it runs counter to the very principle that rights are built. Aggression is very much synonymous with invasion, and it is no different in their argument than it is in any other argument that supports the violation of another person or their property. The very core principle of rights is that everyone has the absolute right to be “free” from aggression, and all they speak of is aggression, and all they support is aggression. There is nothing about their argument that even hints at a human right being spoken of. To even suggest you have the right to someone elses service is akin to saying you have a right to slaves, and there is nothing more invalid than the argument of slavery.
    Last edited by Henrin; 02-27-14 at 04:15 AM.

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    Re: Arizona anti-gay bill vetoed by governor

    The governor just pre-empted the federal courts, who would have struck it down anyway on the grounds that it was an endorsement of religion.

    The last thing AZ needs is an even more bushwhacking reputation.

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