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Thread: Arizona anti-gay bill vetoed by governor

  1. #101
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    Re: Arizona anti-gay bill vetoed by governor

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    Why should your civil rights trump my right to freely practice my religion? Why should the government be allowed to deny me my right to freely practice my religion?
    Please do not call them civil rights. The term civil rights refers to natural justice, not some idiotic concept that people have the right to use property that is not their own, get provided service and labor against peoples wills, and force people into association with them. It's unfounded nonsense and has nothing to do with civil rights.

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    Re: Arizona anti-gay bill vetoed by governor

    Quote Originally Posted by Thom Paine View Post
    1.)Yeah, I know; but is it fitting and proper to legally require someone subject himself in that situation.

    2.)Recently read an Op-Ed suggesting PC has replaced common sense... possibly so ??

    Thom Paine
    1.) im not sure what you are asking?
    is it fitting and proper for the caterer to not service the KKK?
    sorry you lost me

    2.) sometimes it most certainly has and does
    especial in the political world or TV world as far as interviews public speaking

    for examples a politician or a police chief or a doctor or producible may be addressing a crowd and say African Americans or waitron

    but in real life, me an you, friends at a football game or walking down the street. If you said African american and not black id laugh at you, if you said waitron instead of waiter or waitress id probably ask you "what did you just say? " lol

    so yes i agree in some cases its out of control

    but in the case of rights its not, it cant be
    because the alternative is no rights

    rights must apply to us all in general or they are too fragile

    even more fragile than the already are and more pron to people violating them, if they are made unequal then what happens when you or me are on the unequal side?
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    Re: Arizona anti-gay bill vetoed by governor

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    I'm here all night, be sure to hit the tip jar on your way out. Thanks.

    Fred Phelps
    :
    Phelps supported Al Gore in the 1988 Democratic Party presidential primary election . . . members of the Westboro Baptist Church helped run Gore's 1988 campaign in Kansas.

    Phelps has run in various Kansas Democratic Party primaries five times, but has never won. These included races for governor in 1990, 1994, and 1998, receiving about 15 percent of the vote in 1998.[38] In the 1992 Democratic Party primary for U.S. Senate, Phelps received 31 percent of the vote.[39] Phelps ran for mayor of Topeka in 1993[40][41] and 1997
    Speaking of Fred Phelps, I am sure many people would like to see businesses discriminate against Phelps and his clan. There would not be outcry, but cheering.

    And this illustrates the problem with leaving property rights up to public perception: they then become arbitrary and effectively void.
    "I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money." -Thomas Sowell

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    Re: Arizona anti-gay bill vetoed by governor

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleon View Post
    No they don't. A business is a separate legal entity in all things but liability.
    Stop giving me legal drivel that violates property rights. A business is the property of the owner and like any other property owner they have a right to their property.


    LOL. Have I stepped through the looking glass into a world where law has no merit in a legal argument?
    This is not what you think it is. I'm arguing human rights, you're arguing unjust laws designed to give government power over private property. You're argument must assume violation of property rights is just and for that very reason you lose.

  5. #105
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    Re: Arizona anti-gay bill vetoed by governor

    Quote Originally Posted by DashingAmerican View Post
    I have to admit, I'm torn on this one. On one hand, I think businesses should have the right to refuse on any basis, on the other hand, if we allow people to refuse service because of religion, where does it stop?
    It doesn't stop. Pretty soon we're right back to jim crow - "white only" retaurants, you name it. Of course, nothing stopping a business from banning christians, but seeing as that's probably over 90% of arizona's population, you just know it's the jews, muslims, gays, blacks etc who will be banned from all businesses.

    It's stupid as hell anyway. So they're not allowed to discriminate and that's somehow going to hurt their business?

    14th amendment and civil rights act took care of all this already. Even if she signed it, the courts would pulverize it.

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    Re: Arizona anti-gay bill vetoed by governor

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Aww..what's wrong? You don't want to face up to the fact you argue law backwards? Too bad, you do. Get used to it or stop doing it. People come first, not government. Don't like it? Don't care.
    You don't think that sometimes things get hijacked and the end result is that the law puts everything other than people first?
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
    "There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men. True nobility lies in being superior to your former self" -Hemingway

  7. #107
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    Re: Arizona anti-gay bill vetoed by governor

    What I don't understand is why make such a deal about getting service for a place that clearly despises you. I mean, do you really expect a photographer that is being forced to take your pictures to take good pictures for you?
    If you strike me down, I'll become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.

  8. #108
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    Re: Arizona anti-gay bill vetoed by governor

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    When a person creates something...a service, that is an extention of themselves. What’s at stake in this context is when individuals who provide material and artistic craft for weddings are then forced to take their talents and their creative abilities and use them for purposes that go against their consciences To force them to create something that is against their being is denying them their right of conscience which cuts at the heart of our religious freedom.
    yah this failed strawman was tried in court, did you read the ruling, now print is hard to read but by the ruling it seemed the judge almost pissed himself with laughter over that failed strawman

    theres NOTHING you described (even with the factual inaccuracies and fantasies) that gives one the right to violate the rights of others
    This space is currently owned by The Great Winchester, stay tuned for future messages!
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    Re: Arizona anti-gay bill vetoed by governor

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    You don't think that sometimes things get hijacked and the end result is that the law puts everything other than people first?
    No doubt. Many of our laws are based on that principle. Just look at Napoleons argument that basically puts government in control over business and not the owner of the property. He doesn't seem to realize he can't support with logic the idea that government should have such power over private property.

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    Re: Arizona anti-gay bill vetoed by governor

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    Why should the government be allowed to deny me my right to freely practice my religion?
    For the same reason it denies the right to freely practice any dogma which creates dysfunction within a society.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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