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Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

Zyphlin said:
Buddy should've read post 10, then he wouldn't known the punch line and gotten in one of those boats ;)
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WCH said:
No, I'm saying doctors and modern medicine sometimes kill or maim people whereas that's not something prayers are capable of..
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The first baby died of pneumonia, and it looks as if the second (yes...second) died of that as well. Pneumonia, if you recall, is treatable. People tend not to get killed or maimed by going to the doctor for pneumonia.

Considering that the pastor has said outright that the parents would not seek treatment even if the same thing happened with their third baby (shudder), then this really isn't the thread for you to hang that particular hat on.

You are holding what is popularly known as "an indefensible position." Time to move along.
 
Cardinal said:
The first baby died of pneumonia, and it looks as if the second (yes...second) died of that as well. Pneumonia, if you recall, is treatable. People tend not to get killed or maimed by going to the doctor for pneumonia.

Considering that the pastor has said outright that the parents would not seek treatment even if the same thing happened with their third baby (shudder), then this really isn't the thread for you to hang that particular hat on.

You are holding what is popularly known as "an indefensible position." Time to move along.
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Okay, I know I'm a contrarian, but I do know someone whose child, infant, died due to going to the doctor for a respiratory infection. The baby was 6 weeks old. The parents contracted a cold, so did the baby. They took the baby to the doctor who instructed them to take it to the hospital. They managed to clear up the "cold" but in the process the child acquired from the hospital a deadlier staph infection that even sending the baby from Boise to some huge totally reputable hospital in Seattle didn't resolve. The baby died after 6 weeks of agonizing (one can imagine since pain remedies are not generally given to infants,iirc) infections.
 
PirateMk1 said:
I guess I am gona get jumped on this, but the way I see it, unless the children are old and able enough to declare emancipation of their own free will, the parents have the absolute right to determine what if any medical treatment is appropriate. It is neither your nor my nor the states place to make that determination. These are NOT YOUR children, these children are these parents and they have the burden of responsibility to make these decisions. Would you brook someone second guessing YOUR decisions. I most certainly do not. Especially from the state. The ultimate responsibility lies with the parents. They obviously have very solid belief if they have done this a second time. The family seems to support them and their belief. I don't see this as murder or child abuse, as this works both ways as the state has done far worse far more. Case in point, the case in Massachusetts with Boston medical. Given the choice between the state and the individual I choose the individual every time.

By the way I don't think the order by the court for the parents to seek medical care for their children is lawful as it violates first amendment protections.
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You don't own your children. They are not your property. You are responsible for them. Not providing your children with proper medical care is no different than not providing them with food, water, or shelter. Would you support a parent being able to starve their child to death if it was their religious belief that prayer was all the nourishment their kids required?
 
Summerwind said:
Okay, I know I'm a contrarian, but I do know someone whose child, infant, died due to going to the doctor for a respiratory infection. The baby was 6 weeks old. The parents contracted a cold, so did the baby. They took the baby to the doctor who instructed them to take it to the hospital. They managed to clear up the "cold" but in the process the child acquired from the hospital a deadlier staph infection that even sending the baby from Boise to some huge totally reputable hospital in Seattle didn't resolve. The baby died after 6 weeks of agonizing (one can imagine since pain remedies are not generally given to infants,iirc) infections.
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Exactly my point.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimate that health care-associated infections (HAI) account for an estimated 1.7 million infections and 99,000 associated deaths each year in U.S. hospitals.

Name anyone who died because of prayer.
 
HenryChinaski said:
The refused to seek medical attention for life threatening yet treatable conditions. They allowed their children to die due to neglect. Clear as crystal there buddy.
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WCH said:
My point is the title of this thread is pure BS. Prayers don't cause death.
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The title of the thread is the USA Today headline. Don't blame me. And you're right. The cause of death was having two morons as parents.
 
WCH said:
Exactly my point.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimate that health care-associated infections (HAI) account for an estimated 1.7 million infections and 99,000 associated deaths each year in U.S. hospitals.

Name anyone who died because of prayer.
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Name anyone that had an easily treatable condition that was cured by prayer rather than medicine. That is the problem. Whether they pray for their kid or not is up to them. However, you cannot choose for your kids to deny them life saving treatment and instead rely on prayer alone. Similarly, I cannot choose to quite feeding my kids and instead rely on prayer to nourish them.
 
Cardinal said:
The first baby died of pneumonia, and it looks as if the second (yes...second) died of that as well. Pneumonia, if you recall, is treatable. People tend not to get killed or maimed by going to the doctor for pneumonia.

Considering that the pastor has said outright that the parents would not seek treatment even if the same thing happened with their third baby (shudder), then this really isn't the thread for you to hang that particular hat on.

You are holding what is popularly known as "an indefensible position." Time to move along.
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No, you are trying to paint me as agreeing with what those parents refused to do. Nice try.

[I already addressed the parent's faulty religious beliefs]
 
WCH said:
Exactly my point.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimate that health care-associated infections (HAI) account for an estimated 1.7 million infections and 99,000 associated deaths each year in U.S. hospitals.

Name anyone who died because of prayer.
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Jim Carrey got hit by an 18 wheeler while praying. Fortunately Morgan Freeman brought him back to life.
 
Top Cat said:
The title of the thread is the USA Today headline. Don't blame me. And you're right. The cause of death was having two morons as parents.
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I wasn't casting blame and I checked the source to be sure.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Name anyone that had an easily treatable condition that was cured by prayer rather than medicine. That is the problem. Whether they pray for their kid or not is up to them. However, you cannot choose for your kids to deny them life saving treatment and instead rely on prayer alone. Similarly, I cannot choose to quite feeding my kids and instead rely on prayer to nourish them.
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I agree although no matter what choices *I* make, prayer is always involved.
 
PirateMk1 said:
I guess I am gona get jumped on this, but the way I see it, unless the children are old and able enough to declare emancipation of their own free will, the parents have the absolute right to determine what if any medical treatment is appropriate. It is neither your nor my nor the states place to make that determination. These are NOT YOUR children, these children are these parents and they have the burden of responsibility to make these decisions. Would you brook someone second guessing YOUR decisions. I most certainly do not. Especially from the state. The ultimate responsibility lies with the parents. They obviously have very solid belief if they have done this a second time. The family seems to support them and their belief. I don't see this as murder or child abuse, as this works both ways as the state has done far worse far more. Case in point, the case in Massachusetts with Boston medical. Given the choice between the state and the individual I choose the individual every time.

By the way I don't think the order by the court for the parents to seek medical care for their children is lawful as it violates first amendment protections.
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So what you are saying here is that the children are their parents property. Would you draw the line at religious sacrifice? What is the difference? I would also bet that you oppose abortion, but I could be wrong.
 
Gipper said:
Jim Carrey got hit by an 18 wheeler while praying. Fortunately Morgan Freeman brought him back to life.
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While praying and 'because of' prayer are two different beasties.
 
loader said:
Why all liberals are so kind? Or you educated in schools for vampires?
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when you decide to make some level of sense, and manage to use language that is understandable....get back to me.

Perhaps at that point you might comprehend my political lean.
 
joko104 said:
I think I can fairly accurately guess those parents are on your pro-life team on the abortion issue.
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Hence the term "ironically". :roll:
 
WCH said:
Exactly my point.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimate that health care-associated infections (HAI) account for an estimated 1.7 million infections and 99,000 associated deaths each year in U.S. hospitals.

Name anyone who died because of prayer.
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Prayer won't kill people because it does nothing. It won't help someone either. If you get shot in the gut, do you want a prayer or a doctor? Even though there is some probability of greater harm in the hospital, rational folk take it over prayer because it has much much much much higher chances of benefiting the individual far beyond that which prayer would ever do.

A prayer or a doctor, what would you take? I'm not saying people cannot pray, but if you do it in lieu of taking your child to a hospital; there could be repercussions.
 
Why are you intolerant bigots telling this couple how to raise their children? Until the child is old enough to be viable on its own the state has no legitimate interest in protecting its life. If you disagree with child-murder, then don't murder a child. Keep your rosaries out of her ovaries.
 
Paleocon said:
Why are you intolerant bigots telling this couple how to raise their children? Until the child is old enough to be viable on its own the state has no legitimate interest in protecting its life. If you disagree with child-murder, then don't murder a child. Keep your rosaries out of her ovaries.
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Well dang, with that line of thought, I should be allowed to stop feeding my daughter and pray for her nourishment. If she dies from starvation, that's my business. Piss off state!
 
HenryChinaski said:
Well dang, with that line of thought, I should be allowed to stop feeding my daughter and pray for her nourishment. If she dies from starvation, that's my business. Piss off state!
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You realize I was being sarcastic, right?
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Name anyone that had an easily treatable condition that was cured by prayer rather than medicine.
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i would be surprised if there were not large numbers of people who believed they were healed thru prayer
and Lazarus is a name, if you insist on having one

That is the problem. Whether they pray for their kid or not is up to them.
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but it is. you raise your children up in your own beliefs
one cannot do that, subscribe to a belief in healing prayer, and then also appeal for medical help you do not believe is the answer. that would undermine your religious teachings to your children
and we all have a right to our personal religious beliefs (or disbeliefs)
there is nothing which indicates these parents acted other than in a consistent way with their personal religious beliefs
we must accept that not only are they are entitled to have their own religious beliefs, they also have the right to act on those beliefs
just as we must accept your own religious beliefs/non-beliefs, no matter how farfetched they seem to us
we must practice tolerance of these religious views and actions of others

However, you cannot choose for your kids to deny them life saving treatment and instead rely on prayer alone.
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while that would not be my choice, i must recognize that these parents are entitled to act on THEIR religious beliefs, no matter how different, or odd they may seem

Similarly, I cannot choose to quite feeding my kids and instead rely on prayer to nourish them.
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this is not the same thing
there are many, MANY parents who feed their children crap that is unhealthy for them. look around. but we still recognize that it's the parents' call. they can choose to feed their children unnourishing foods. even worse, those kids are often being fed that crap at taxpayer expense; but that's for another thread discussion
and i would submit that there are parents who are feeding their childrens' minds inane bull ****; much of it religious. but that is the parents' right. the bill or rights says so. for them, and for these parents who tried but were unable to pray away the sickness that afflicted their children
 
I wonder if the law makers in Arizona would defend this family's right to refuse services due to their religious convictions?
 
Captain America said:
I wonder if the law makers in Arizona would defend this family's right to refuse services due to their religious convictions?
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Doubtful, I don't think those laws cover emergency and medical services.
 
Ikari said:
Prayer won't kill people because it does nothing. It won't help someone either. If you get shot in the gut, do you want a prayer or a doctor? Even though there is some probability of greater harm in the hospital, rational folk take it over prayer because it has much much much much higher chances of benefiting the individual far beyond that which prayer would ever do.

A prayer or a doctor, what would you take? I'm not saying people cannot pray, but if you do it in lieu of taking your child to a hospital; there could be repercussions.
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I'm doing both because I'm not a fundie nutjob.

But, prayer does work and I highly recommend it. :)
 
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