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Thread: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    I can only tell you of my personal experience. Is that peer-reviewed enough?
    Nope. Singular personal testimonial is singular personal testimonial not carefully screened for cross-contamination of interpretation. It has to be scientific.
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryChinaski View Post
    If genital mutilation or stoning were part of their religious beliefs.
    and no, neither would murder as a religious belief, be found acceptable
    but refusing to subscribe to the belief that modern medicine is better for their kids than prayer to their G-d, that's covered under religious freedom
    what you or i believe is not at issue. it's what the parents believe. and they acted on their religious beliefs


    Are they still ENTITLED to "act" on their religious beliefs?
    while i think teaching one's kids that the earth is 6000 years old and that the Bible is the literal word of G-d is absolute bull****
    but if you believe that as a part of your faith then you are entitled to practice your religious beliefs, and spew such stupid misinformation
    and ditto for believing that religious prayer is a means to cure a medical condition

    They allowed their children to die by neglecting to seek medical help.
    my speculation is they believe G-d allowed their children to die by refusing to answer their prayers. their preacher is now insisting that they were not religious enough to have such prayers answered. it's stupid. i agree. but if stupidity were illegal, a lot of the folks on this forum would be acting illegally; and probably a large portion of the citizens of the USA


    They have zero rights to do or not do what they did.
    and here is where we disagree
    that thing called the bill of rights, that a lot of people died to establish and maintain; well that legal document says these parents are entitled to their own religious beliefs. and they are. and they acted on them
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    and no, neither would murder as a religious belief, be found acceptable
    but refusing to subscribe to the belief that modern medicine is better for their kids than prayer to their G-d, that's covered under religious freedom
    what you or i believe is not at issue. it's what the parents believe. and they acted on their religious beliefs



    while i think teaching one's kids that the earth is 6000 years old and that the Bible is the literal word of G-d is absolute bull****
    but if you believe that as a part of your faith then you are entitled to practice your religious beliefs, and spew such stupid misinformation
    and ditto for believing that religious prayer is a means to cure a medical condition


    my speculation is they believe G-d allowed their children to die by refusing to answer their prayers. their preacher is now insisting that they were not religious enough to have such prayers answered. it's stupid. i agree. but if stupidity were illegal, a lot of the folks on this forum would be acting illegally; and probably a large portion of the citizens of the USA



    and here is where we disagree
    that thing called the bill of rights, that a lot of people died to establish and maintain; well that legal document says these parents are entitled to their own religious beliefs. and they are. and they acted on them
    That would be true if it affected only them. If they refused treatment and relied on prayer so be it, but their freedom stops when it affects the lives of others. You said it would not be OK for them to kill their child in the name of their belief, but where do you draw the line and based on what?

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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    I guess I am gona get jumped on this, but the way I see it, unless the children are old and able enough to declare emancipation of their own free will, the parents have the absolute right to determine what if any medical treatment is appropriate. It is neither your nor my nor the states place to make that determination. These are NOT YOUR children, these children are these parents and they have the burden of responsibility to make these decisions. Would you brook someone second guessing YOUR decisions. I most certainly do not. Especially from the state. The ultimate responsibility lies with the parents. They obviously have very solid belief if they have done this a second time. The family seems to support them and their belief. I don't see this as murder or child abuse, as this works both ways as the state has done far worse far more. Case in point, the case in Massachusetts with Boston medical. Given the choice between the state and the individual I choose the individual every time.

    By the way I don't think the order by the court for the parents to seek medical care for their children is lawful as it violates first amendment protections.
    I disagree with you, but appreciate the manner in which you've explained your position.

    I wanted to ask you a hypothetical question, if you don't mind. Would you extend your position to cover a child with a severely broken leg, who would spend weeks or months in excruciating pain from an injury that if not properly treated, would cripple the child for life?

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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    See im torn on this one


    while personally I think the parents are completely mentally retarded and id like to punch them in the face I dont know how i feel legally about this.

    I think its a huge gray area.

    For me i just have to wonder where the line is at. Who and how do we determine abuse/neglect in cases like these?

    If the parents believe that using medicine or doctors would be damning their child and or themselves to hell IMO the legality of this is a tough call.

    Personally YES i want to take the kid away and punish them but my personal opinion doesnt matter I look at the legality of it, the rights issue of it.

    I mean personally im a christian but i think its insane and abuse to teach a child that the earth is 6000 years old, its insane but again that doesnt mean that legally thier kid should be taken away.

    is the line at a place where it means life or death for the child?
    severe physical or mental impairment?
    minor physical or mental impairment?
    severe physical or mental abuse/neglect? (based on what/who)?
    minor physical or mental abuse/neglect? (based on what/who)?


    what about a religious family that severely mentally and physically abuse thier child because they are gay and tries to get them conversion therapy?
    this most definitely would be considered abuse by the AAP and APA can we take them then? states are already banning this abuse therapy.

    what about extreme religious people that teach other religions and the people that practice them are evil? IMO that seems like abuse and neglect but thats just my opinion. What system do we use to judge this?

    again personally id like to punch these people in the face but so what, if they truly believe that using medicinae would damn them or their child to hell it does make it hard for me to support the law in this case.
    Last edited by AGENT J; 02-25-14 at 08:48 PM.
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yes, well I'm not so convinced till I see some peer reviewed studies in renowned medical journals with statistically significant deviation from background.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/he...anted=all&_r=0

    I don't know if it was peer reviewed, but it indicates that prayer helps none at all.
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    I disagree with you, but appreciate the manner in which you've explained your position.

    I wanted to ask you a hypothetical question, if you don't mind. Would you extend your position to cover a child with a severely broken leg, who would spend weeks or months in excruciating pain from an injury that if not properly treated, would cripple the child for life?
    Your not going to like my answer. Yes I would. Religious freedom is a key right we have. Again unless it is demonstrated that the parents are in fact neglecting or abusing their children we have no right to interfere. These parents in particular are by all accounts besides deeply religious also very loving very supportive and caring parents. These parents believe differently than you or I, this means the decisions they will make may be much different then ones you or I may make. As much as people claim that it is neglect here, it most certainly and clearly is NOT, it is a decision clearly made, which is well within their parental rights and responsibilities. The fact you or I would not AGREE with the decision has no bearing on whether or not neglect is involved which clearly in this case there was not. Broken legs can be set without doctors or medical services. Most religions do not proscribe against the setting of bones I am aware of.
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    All of our rights are subjected to the one constraint that we cannot infringe upon the rights of others in the process. If a person chooses for themselves to not seek medical help, that's one thing. But a child is unable to give consent and the parents not seeking obvious medical care endanger the life of that child, they infringe upon the child's right to life. So then it's right of religious freedom vs. right to life. I think it could be argued that the right to life overrules the right to religious freedom in this case.
    The very act of providing medical care may in fact endanger the lives of those children visa vi misdiagnoses or an illness picked up from the hospital. Again no neglect can be proven. They made a legitimate decision. You or I may not agree on it but the case remains it was legitimate.
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    Just as I do your argument.
    And I call yours a fools argument. There is a bigger picture and more at stake then just their rights to make a legitimate decision.
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    A person can pray for their child without contradicting medical care.

    People like to use this to attack religious people. The parents should be charged with child abuse in my opinion. But not for being religious. MANY children die due to parents not taking their child to the doctor. 99% of the time this is because they don't give a damn, are apathetic, are uneducated, don't want to spent the time or money, or it is due to child abuse they caused so don't want doctors involved - having NOTHING to do with religion.

    We don't read much of those, yet that is where kids are dying in notable numbers for lack of medical care. The media (and some on this forum) seize on these stories as a way to attack religious people.

    As another member noted, pray didn't kill the child. The parents being religious didn't. Pneumonia did and the parents refused to allow it to be treated.

    But, as many people declare, they want them to be a SPECIAL case as example to all RELIGIOUS parents - not all parents who don't obtain medical care for their children.
    The reason this is a special case as is all like them as neglect has to be proven which it patently cannot be. There is no neglect. There is a decision that was made that most people seem to disagree with.
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