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Thread: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

  1. #191
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by PoS View Post
    Hi, Ikari.
    Hey PoS, what's up!
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    I kind of figured Scientology wasn't your cup of tea.
    It's clearly a cult and a scam, I don't see how it was allowed to be defined as a "religion".
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #193
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    but they have the religious freedom to believe that prayer heals
    and their religious beliefs direct them to prayer for healing instead of medicine
    why do your beliefs trump theirs?
    Because in a secularly-run nation, the state trumps religious beliefs where those beliefs are counter to the law. IMO. To me, it should apply to the rights listed in the BOR at minimum.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  4. #194
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    The few dissenters in this thread do not seem to get the concept that your children are not your property.
    the parents are the legal guardians of the children; and the parents are raising their children within the failth and belief system followed by the parents

    You are your child's guardian, and thus you are responsible for raising that child, providing for their needs, and making decisions for that child that is in the child's best interest.
    and we are in agreement in all of this
    the parent guardians are responsible for caring for their children in the way THEY view best
    in this instance THEY chose to follow prayer as the healing mechanism, consistent with THEIR religious convictions

    There is a lot of leeway in this, we all have known terrible parents that still managed to raise their kids. However, because you are your kid's guardian and not your kid's owner, you cannot deny them lifesaving care.
    and consistent with THEIR religious beliefs, the parents chose prayer as the way to effect healing

    You cannot deny them food.
    food was NOT denied

    You cannot deny them proper shelter
    they were NOT denied shelter

    ... or other life saving / preserving needs.
    and in the parents' religious view, they did not deny their children life saving/preserving attention. they offered what THE PARENTS believed to be best for their children. they chose the healing of religious prayer
    not what you or i would have chosen, but we are not of the parents' faith. they have a right to choose their faith and to live by the tenants of their own religion. and that called for the healing powers of prayer

    That is where the line is drawn.
    and the parents acted within that line
    THEY did what they believed was best for their children, consistent with their personal beliefs

    If I were to quite feeding my kids, it would certainly be appropriate for the state to step in, and if necessary either remove custody from me or even prosecute me for my negligence.
    yes, but unlike you, these parents did not choose to starve their children. they did choose to follow the articles of their faith

    This way my kids would not face the horrendous death of slow starvation.
    and these children did not face starvation

    Similarly, if I had a child that developed cancer, and I refused to get my child any medical treatment for that cancer, it would be perfectly appropriate for the state to step in and thus save my child, that cannot legally consent themselves yet, from probably dying a slow and extremely painful death.
    but if your religious faith directed you to choose prayer instead of medicine, that would be the course of action directed by a higher power, your G_d
    and that was the circumstance in extant circumstance

    My motivations for doing this would be irrelevant as it would have no impact on the results of my actions either way.
    if you were a religious person who obeyed the directives of G_d as you understood them to be, and if those directives were to apply prayer rather than medicine, then you would choose prayer

    Even if I thought I could pray away my kid's cancer, it would not change the fact that my denying them medical care would result in their dying a slow and extremely painful death.
    this assumes prayer would not help
    you cannot offer any assurance that would not be the result

    I am not sure why this is such a difficult concept to grasp. Its not even controversial.
    it is not difficult to grasp for those who choose to recognize the right to live by one's religious edicts
    it becomes controversial when that choice is other than what would be prevalent, as in this instance
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  5. #195
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    A mother about to abort her fetus doesn't have the best interests of the fetus in mind.
    That is not necessarily true. I gather that you are pro-life and as such would you be OK with a crack addict mother wanting to abort because she has the best interests of the fetus in mind? There are any number of scenarios along this line, but I believe you get the point.

  6. #196
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    An adult JW? No. And eating pork is not of a life saving or abusive nature.
    Yeah but it all comes back to religious freedom and to whether the government really needs to be a nanny state (literally) taking care of our children.

    There's a role for government, and there's a role for parents. Unfortunately not all parents are spectacular. Same can be said for governments. I still don't like mixing the roles.

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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    They took their religion to the extreme and ultimately killed two of their own in the name of their religion. People are free to practice whatever religion or belief they chose...but its not a legal or protected right to do harm in the name of a relgion, not even to your own kids.

    Religious individuals are still subject to the same criminal laws as everyone else.
    They didn't kill anyone. The kid died of natural causes.

  8. #198
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    They didn't kill anyone. The kid died of natural causes.
    With your logic, If you fall into a lake and I stand by offering no help to you. and just watch you drown, you've died of natural causes.

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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryChinaski View Post
    With your logic, If you fall into a lake and I stand by offering no help to you. and just watch you drown, you've died of natural causes.
    If I fall in to a lake and you don't help me, you didn't kill me.

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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    They didn't kill anyone. The kid died of natural causes.
    This is why laws exist.

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