Page 19 of 22 FirstFirst ... 91718192021 ... LastLast
Results 181 to 190 of 217

Thread: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

  1. #181
    Sage
    RiverDad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    04-20-14 @ 02:16 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    5,039

    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    In terms of public policy, verifiable facts should always trump faith.
    Well, in terms of public policy in Australia and Canada, the evidence was overwhelming that Aborigine and Native, respectively, parents weren't raising their children as successfully as white parents raised their children, so for the sake of the children, each government set out to remove these children from the homes of their parents and raise them in residential schools.

    It was for the children. The evidence supported the government's position.

    The children, when they became adults, were, ahem, kind of upset by the government's position that it knew better than the parents what was in the best interests of the children.

  2. #182
    Sage
    Cephus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    CA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    29,774

    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    re making good decisions on behalf of their children:
    and as parents, they believe they have done so
    they subscribe to a faith which believes in the healing power of prayer
    and while they are in the distinct minority (fortunately) who believe that, because their religious credo is different than others of us does not mean they are not entitled to practice their own faith. it's established by the bill of rights
    these parents appear to genuinely to believe in the medicinal power of prayer
    and in these two instances that approach failed
    but medical approaches fail, too
    and who among us can establish with 100% accuracy that the power of prayer does not work
    That's why this faith-based nonsense simply does not work and should never be acceptable. We, as a society, set the standards for child care. Everyone complies or pays the consequences for not doing it. I don't give a damn what their religious beliefs are. If their religious beliefs told them to cut off their children's fingers and eat them with a nice chiante, we wouldn't allow that. Why do we allow them to do this?

    Screw the idiot religious.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

    Blog me! YouTube me! VidMe me!

  3. #183
    Pragmatist
    SouthernDemocrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    KC
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    17,406

    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Well, in terms of public policy in Australia and Canada, the evidence was overwhelming that Aborigine and Native, respectively, parents weren't raising their children as successfully as white parents raised their children, so for the sake of the children, each government set out to remove these children from the homes of their parents and raise them in residential schools.

    It was for the children. The evidence supported the government's position.

    The children, when they became adults, were, ahem, kind of upset by the government's position that it knew better than the parents what was in the best interests of the children.
    That is not even remotely comparable. Moreover, we have laws against that here. You can't even adopt a native american orphan if you are not native american yourself. This is about life saving care. Do you think that a parent can deny food to their kids and thus starve them to death if doing so is their sincerely held religious belief?
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  4. #184
    Pragmatist
    SouthernDemocrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    KC
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    17,406

    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    The few dissenters in this thread do not seem to get the concept that your children are not your property. You are your child's guardian, and thus you are responsible for raising that child, providing for their needs, and making decisions for that child that is in the child's best interest. There is a lot of leeway in this, we all have known terrible parents that still managed to raise their kids. However, because you are your kid's guardian and not your kid's owner, you cannot deny them lifesaving care. You cannot deny them food. You cannot deny them proper shelter or other life saving / preserving needs. That is where the line is drawn. If I were to quite feeding my kids, it would certainly be appropriate for the state to step in, and if necessary either remove custody from me or even prosecute me for my negligence. This way my kids would not face the horrendous death of slow starvation. Similarly, if I had a child that developed cancer, and I refused to get my child any medical treatment for that cancer, it would be perfectly appropriate for the state to step in and thus save my child, that cannot legally consent themselves yet, from probably dying a slow and extremely painful death. My motivations for doing this would be irrelevant as it would have no impact on the results of my actions either way. Even if I thought I could pray away my kid's cancer, it would not change the fact that my denying them medical care would result in their dying a slow and extremely painful death.

    I am not sure why this is such a difficult concept to grasp. Its not even controversial.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 02-26-14 at 07:50 PM.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  5. #185
    Sage
    Lursa's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Outside Seattle
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    29,787

    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    This country recognizes the separation of church and state and also the exercise of religious beliefs. But those beliefs are already restricted in some instances and this to me seems like a legitimate place to do so as well.

    We do not allow certain substances to be used in religious ceremonies, we do not allow the marriage of girls of a certain age, we do not allow polygamy, we do not allow stoning an adulterer.

    The secular laws of the state and as supported by the Constitution come *first.*

    If you allow this, do you also allow Shari'a law? Cutting off a thief's hand? Stoning an adulterer? Honor killings?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  6. #186
    Sage
    Ikari's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 01:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    54,124

    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    Well I didn't need any, large sampling, journals or my peers to decide prayer works for me.

    What about the power of positive thinking.... Anything scientific there. Like L. Ron Hubbard.
    You don't have to. You can do and believe whatever it is that is best to you by your own judgement so long as you do not infringe upon the rights of others in the process. If what you experienced is enough to convince you, that's fine. I was merely telling you what it would take to convince ME.

    L. Ron Hubbard made my nemesis religion. I have strong desire to create my own "church" that is diametrically opposed to Scientology. Then set up shop across the street.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  7. #187
    Sage
    WCH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    The Lone Star State.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:18 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    22,154

    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You don't have to. You can do and believe whatever it is that is best to you by your own judgement so long as you do not infringe upon the rights of others in the process. If what you experienced is enough to convince you, that's fine. I was merely telling you what it would take to convince ME.

    L. Ron Hubbard made my nemesis religion. I have strong desire to create my own "church" that is diametrically opposed to Scientology. Then set up shop across the street.
    I kind of figured Scientology wasn't your cup of tea.
    32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
    Matt. 10:32-33

  8. #188
    Sage
    Lursa's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Outside Seattle
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    29,787

    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    I don't agree with how you've formulated the comparison here.

    Pro-life people believe that the State should step in to prevent an abortion, not when a pregnant mother is neglecting her fetus, but when the pregnant mother is attempting to murder the fetus. You reference neglect to the fetus. I take that to mean the mother is not eating enough, is drinking or smoking during pregnancy, etc so the mother is harming the fetus through neglect. Pro-life people don't see abortion as neglect, they see it as murder.

    Now this couple, they have a belief in faith, that faith will save their child. People who don't share that faith believe that medical treatment will save their child.

    A mother about to abort her fetus doesn't have the best interests of the fetus in mind. The parents of this child did have the best interests of their child in mind. They were praying to save the child. Pro-lifers disagree with a mother's decision to abort her fetus. Outsiders disagree that these parents had the best interests of their child in mind.

    The only point where I think your analysis works is the equation of Pro-Life intervention to stop an abortion and the States intervention to save a child. In both cases we have outsiders imposing their viewpoints (mother is intent on killing her fetus and parents are going to let their child die with their praying strategy) and so intervention to stop the mother and parents is warranted.

    That last point though seriously undercuts the Pro-Choice argument. It's difficult therefore to argue that the reasoning for intervention is sound in the case of these parents but unsound in the case of abortions.
    If the mother holds the religious view that the fetus is the product of a sin and must be destroyed, she should have that right. It is neither neglect nor murder, just her strongly-held religious belief. She may indeed believe that this is in the best interests of the fetus, that she is 'saving' its soul.

    FWIW, in the OP case, there's no neglect here...it's intentional and the parents have stated the reasons behind it. This is their strongly-held belief, and they believe that it is right and that they will be saving their child's soul.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  9. #189
    long standing member
    justabubba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 03:50 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    36,132

    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Well, in terms of public policy in Australia and Canada, the evidence was overwhelming that Aborigine and Native, respectively, parents weren't raising their children as successfully as white parents raised their children, so for the sake of the children, each government set out to remove these children from the homes of their parents and raise them in residential schools.

    It was for the children. The evidence supported the government's position.

    The children, when they became adults, were, ahem, kind of upset by the government's position that it knew better than the parents what was in the best interests of the children.
    same thing with the Eastern Band of the Cherokee Nation back in the 1800's
    well intended quaker schools were established to teach the Cherokee children
    the kids infrequently reunited with their parents
    and the parents never learned how to parent
    one learns to be a parent from their own parents
    that became a lost skill among the Cherokee for many generations
    unintended consequences of benevolent acts
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  10. #190
    long standing member
    justabubba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 03:50 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    36,132

    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    That's why this faith-based nonsense simply does not work and should never be acceptable. We, as a society, set the standards for child care. Everyone complies or pays the consequences for not doing it. I don't give a damn what their religious beliefs are. If their religious beliefs told them to cut off their children's fingers and eat them with a nice chiante, we wouldn't allow that. Why do we allow them to do this?

    Screw the idiot religious.
    but they have the religious freedom to believe that prayer heals
    and their religious beliefs direct them to prayer for healing instead of medicine
    why do your beliefs trump theirs?
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

Page 19 of 22 FirstFirst ... 91718192021 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •