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Thread: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

  1. #161
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    The problem with this argument is that it privileges the Government's viewpoint over the JW or Jews or CS viewpoint. In a sense it sounds like this - "OK, we're going to let you adults do whatever stupid thing it is that you believe you should do, but when it comes to your own children, then you can't do your stupid thing, you have to do the smart thing that WE believe."

    I get that it's really hard not to view Praying for Salvation as a stupid thing and it's very easy to see medical intervention as a smart thing to do, but try to see the underlying principles here. The government's viewpoint is not privileged, it's equal. The government doesn't grant people the right to believe what they wish, that right is inherent. The government doesn't humor people in such situations. The government's position is no better, no more privileged, that the individual's position.



    It's not the government's position to damn the eternal soul of the child by forcing him to receive medical treatment against the dictates of the religion he believes in. We're dealing with issues of faith here, so believing in souls and eternal damnation doesn't require proof. There is no Constitutional mandate which declares that in contests between faith and verifiable facts, that verifiable facts shall always trump faith and can be imposed on the faithful against their will.
    In terms of public policy, verifiable facts should always trump faith. There is not a court in the nation that would agree with your argument. A child cannot consent to denial of life saving treatment just like they cannot consent to starvation. That is the question here, its consent. Your kids are not your property, thus you cannot condemn them to death based on your religious beliefs. It is as simple as that.
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    I do think this is a bit of an overreach by the state. If your family keeps dying because of your religion, well maybe you might want to re-think your religion. But it is their right, and it's not the right of the state to step in and tell someone their religion is wrong.

    That said, I think trying to pray the stupid away in this case is a justifiable course of action. Obviously, after their religion keeps killing their kids, intelligence should tell you something.


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    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    re making good decisions on behalf of their children:
    and as parents, they believe they have done so
    they subscribe to a faith which believes in the healing power of prayer
    and while they are in the distinct minority (fortunately) who believe that, because their religious credo is different than others of us does not mean they are not entitled to practice their own faith. it's established by the bill of rights
    these parents appear to genuinely to believe in the medicinal power of prayer
    and in these two instances that approach failed
    but medical approaches fail, too
    and who among us can establish with 100% accuracy that the power of prayer does not work
    So if it was my deeply held religious belief that food was unnecessary so long as one's faith was strong and I prayed, could I then be permitted to starve my children to death so long my reason for doing so was my deeply held religious belief that food was unnecessary and my prayer was all the nourishment they needed?
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    To ridicule one's faith is uncalled for, but to endorse bad decisions that cost lives because one believes something is another matter. People should be able to believe anything they wish, act accordingly and suffer the consequences, but they are not allowed to do so with other's lives. The child may have been "their" child, but was not their property or slave where they held life and death decisions.

    But that is not the case here, we are neither in the stone age or some remote area like the backside of the moon.

    But that is their life style individually chosen not the life of another.

    Loved the child to death.

    BS. If it was so it would be documented.
    How do you argue for both the government and anarchy.

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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Negligent homicide of a child in your custody is not ****ing covered by the first amendment and I see absolutely no reason to humor such a thing.
    there was no homicide committed
    the right to one's own religious belief is very much covered by the first amendment
    and they practice a faith that calls on prayer instead of medicine for healing powers

    Tell me, Mr. Nick, does your open support for religious diversity include Islamic "honor killings?"
    absolutely not
    there is a difference between inflicting harm upon another and failing to obtain medical help because your religion decrees prayer instead of medical attention
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    This amounts to a Heckler's veto.
    It does not. "What would a reasonable person do?" is an often used tool and it is a valid application in this case.

    The vast majority of people oppose Woman A having an abortion, so the will of the people must win out.
    That is not true either.

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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    the right to one's own religious belief is very much covered by the first amendment
    Not when it affects another life.

    and they practice a faith that calls on prayer instead of medicine for healing powers
    They may freely do so when they get sick.

  8. #168
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    I do think this is a bit of an overreach by the state. If your family keeps dying because of your religion, well maybe you might want to re-think your religion. But it is their right, and it's not the right of the state to step in and tell someone their religion is wrong.

    That said, I think trying to pray the stupid away in this case is a justifiable course of action. Obviously, after their religion keeps killing their kids, intelligence should tell you something.
    This is a BS argument, it is not about religion.....in the death of their first child they did not even use a religious freedom argument.

    This is completely about neglect, criminal neglect. And as other keep trying to emphasize, you cannot use religion as a cover for neglect, murder....or any other criminal act.
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    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
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    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
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    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Hello...is this thing on?


    Herbert and Catherine Schaible are being sentenced Wednesday in the death last year of their 8-month-old son, Brandon. At the time, they were under court orders to seek medical care for their children after their 2-year-old son, Kent, died of untreated pneumonia in 2009.



    Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths
    notice how the court violated their first amendment right with that order
    it compelled the parents to ignore their personal religious beliefs and instead seek medical attention instead of prayer
    the state should have sought to seek custody of the kids if their welfare was a concern
    the court cannot compel someone to not practice the teachings of their faith
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    there was no homicide committed
    the right to one's own religious belief is very much covered by the first amendment
    and they practice a faith that calls on prayer instead of medicine for healing powers


    absolutely not
    there is a difference between inflicting harm upon another and failing to obtain medical help because your religion decrees prayer instead of medical attention
    They were though, in fact, found guilty by a jury of " involuntary manslaughter, child endangerment and conspiracy charges " in the death of their child in 2009, Kent.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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