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Thread: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

  1. #141
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Do I have a right to step forward and remove your children from your custody if I see you permitting them to go swimming? There is some risk of death during swimming. Sure, it's a minor risk, but it's still a risk. So, how much risk should I, an outsider, tolerate with respect to your parenting of your children before my ludicrous attempt to remove your children from your care is no longer ludicrous but not becomes justified? What if you and I can't agree on a risk threshold? What if you think that it's none of my business how much risk you allow your children to undertake? At what point does it become my business to the point that I can override your best judgment with respect to what you see as tolerable risk levels for your own children?

    Now does anything change if you're really Mark Spitz and you've trained your children yourself and you know that they can swim through river rapids and through mountainous surf and survive. That is, your specific knowledge is superior to my general knowledge where I simply point to drowning statistics and such.

    Lastly, if you are Mark Spitz and you've trained your children to Olympic standards and seen then perform, thus validating your assessment against reality and you dismiss my concerns for the welfare of your children, and they do in fact drown, how do you determine if my risk assessment was accurate or if I was just lucky (and your kids were unlucky) in making my claim?
    Simple, when it crosses the threshold to irresponsibly high risk of death or injury. There are a whole battery of activities that aren't specifically outlined under abuse and protection legislation because it's taken on a case by case basis--with separate investigations & trials for each. Send your kid swimming across the Mississippi and he dies? Yeah you might get a negligent homicide investigation. If he lives? You might get an abuse investigation, I don't know I'd imagine it depends on quite a lot.

    Condemn your child to a likely death by withholding medicine? Yeah that crosses the threshold.

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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    And I call yours a fools argument. There is a bigger picture and more at stake then just their rights to make a legitimate decision.
    I hope this passes. AZ will get precisely what it deserves out of this. And honestly the reforms due to its impact will be a positive actually. Too bad it will **** up a lot of businesses in the meantime.

  3. #143
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    I can produce many others who will testify.
    I'm sure you can. It doesn't mean prayer had anything to do with anything. It's just that you made the connection in your head. Small sample, biased populations cannot be used to extract data on effectiveness of a dynamic. There's nothing in the data taking and analysis to prevent corruption.

    It's why I said that I'd consider it if many large sample studies make it into proper peer-reviewed journals. If it's not scientific, there are too many possibilities for inaccurate analysis.
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I'm sure you can. It doesn't mean prayer had anything to do with anything. It's just that you made the connection in your head. Small sample, biased populations cannot be used to extract data on effectiveness of a dynamic. There's nothing in the data taking and analysis to prevent corruption.

    It's why I said that I'd consider it if many large sample studies make it into proper peer-reviewed journals. If it's not scientific, there are too many possibilities for inaccurate analysis.
    Hi, Ikari.

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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Simple, when it crosses the threshold to irresponsibly high risk of death or injury. There are a whole battery of activities that aren't specifically outlined under abuse and protection legislation because it's taken on a case by case basis--with separate investigations & trials for each. Send your kid swimming across the Mississippi and he dies? Yeah you might get a negligent homicide investigation. If he lives? You might get an abuse investigation, I don't know I'd imagine it depends on quite a lot.

    Condemn your child to a likely death by withholding medicine? Yeah that crosses the threshold.
    but our right to religious freedom tells us that people are entitled to believe in stupid things
    hell, we have southern states teaching creationism in the schools
    and that religious right also enables people who hold non-majority views and believe that prayer heals medical issues, causing them to then not seek trained medical intervention
    so, prove to us that prayer does not ever heal
    we know, as in this instance, that sometimes prayer is not enough, but i do not believe you can prove to us that prayer does not heal
    and we also know that in many instances, medical assistance is also not enough, just as prayer was no adequate remedy in extant circumstance
    people have a right to be stupid, in the name of G_d
    what we have is religious right to choose the power of religious prayer over medicine as the cure for one's family; in no way should it be found child neglect
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  6. #146
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    but our right to religious freedom tells us that people are entitled to believe in stupid things
    hell, we have southern states teaching creationism in the schools
    and that religious right also enables people who hold non-majority views and believe that prayer heals medical issues, causing them to then not seek trained medical intervention
    so, prove to us that prayer does not ever heal
    we know, as in this instance, that sometimes prayer is not enough, but i do not believe you can prove to us that prayer does not heal
    and we also know that in many instances, medical assistance is also not enough, just as prayer was no adequate remedy in extant circumstance
    people have a right to be stupid, in the name of G_d
    what we have is religious right to choose the power of religious prayer over medicine as the cure for one's family; in no way should it be found child neglect
    You can believe stupid things all you want. When they risk serious harm to an individual who has no real ability to comprehend the consequences or give consent you cross the line. You do not have the right to infringe upon the rights of another, in this case a child who would be risking life and death.

    To the other point. Asking me to prove a negative is impossible. I cannot prove that prayer has never cured an individual. I can only prove that there are no scientifically verified cases of prayer curing an individual and that there is a mountain of evidence that empirical medicine does.

    If someone has X illness and you propose Y treatment despite no evidence that it will succeed and much evidence that it will do harm, while I propose Z treatment with a verified possibility of medical success we don't choose Y just because I cant prove that Y has never worked. We choose the one that has a chance of saving the person from X illness.

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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    and no, neither would murder as a religious belief, be found acceptable
    but refusing to subscribe to the belief that modern medicine is better for their kids than prayer to their G-d, that's covered under religious freedom
    what you or i believe is not at issue. it's what the parents believe. and they acted on their religious beliefs...
    It is fine to make such a decision for yourself, but not for others, including children.

  8. #148
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I'm sure you can. It doesn't mean prayer had anything to do with anything. It's just that you made the connection in your head. Small sample, biased populations cannot be used to extract data on effectiveness of a dynamic. There's nothing in the data taking and analysis to prevent corruption.

    It's why I said that I'd consider it if many large sample studies make it into proper peer-reviewed journals. If it's not scientific, there are too many possibilities for inaccurate analysis.
    Well I didn't need any, large sampling, journals or my peers to decide prayer works for me.

    What about the power of positive thinking.... Anything scientific there. Like L. Ron Hubbard.
    32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
    Matt. 10:32-33

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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    It's amazing to me that religious idiots like this are (likely) against abortion. At least the fetuses dont suffer.
    They don't care about suffering. Look at Mother Teresa who thought suffering among the poor was a wonderful thing. What they care about is control, that's what it's all about.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    Hence the parents have the explicit right to determine that until the children are of age to dissent.
    But they also have the explicit RESPONSIBILITY to make good decisions and care for their children as well. Nobody seems to remember that part.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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