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Thread: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

  1. #111
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    again same thing i already pointed out you dont get to make that call at all

    there are women beaters that are convinced they beat thier women out of love and to teach them they see no neglect or abuse in what they do but that doesnt mean there was none present and this is the very thing that makes the discussion and where to draw the line on children even possible
    This is absolutely not the same thing as physical abuse because no harm is being perpetrated. This case is very clear. This was a decision that was made. There is not a nuance here. Neglect requires a lack of care. This cannot be demonstrated at all. They are said to have loved and cared for their children dearly. In fact I do not think that was ever disputed. These children were NEVER abused physically or verbally. The only thing at play here is a decision. Not neglect. People for whatever reason seem to be confusing the two. The decision was not to seek medical care. That was a decision, not lack thereof. I am not sure how their lawyer went about the defense but I sincerely doubt, he attempted to make the case there was no neglect at all and that this was a wholly made decision. Neglect in the law has very strict criteria to meet. This case in my opinion does not meet that criteria by any stretch.
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  2. #112
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    The children weren't old enough to declare their religious belief of their own free will, either.
    Hence the parents have the explicit right to determine that until the children are of age to dissent.
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  3. #113
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Right, of course we must tolerate the religious beliefs of others no matter how absurd they may seem. We also must recognize that others have the right to act on those beliefs. For example, if someone is a Christian Scientist, they get diagnosed with cancer yet refuse medical treatment because of their personal religious beliefs, then we have to respect their beliefs even if it means they will almost certainly die.

    However, their kids cannot consent to such beliefs. That is the problem here. You cannot deny life saving treatment for your child because your child is not an adult and thus cannot consent. Your child is not your "property".





    Of course its the same thing. If it is my deeply held religious belief that prayer is all the nourishment one needs and through prayer one is nourished, then if I completely deny my kids any food at all because of my deeply held religious belief, then how is that any different at all?
    Treatment by medical professionals is always a gamble. Most times you stack the odds in your favor. However they are just that odds. Things can and do go wrong in the medical field and quite often. It is a legitimate choice not to seek medical assistance.
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  4. #114
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    This is absolutely not the same thing as physical abuse because no harm is being perpetrated.
    This case is very clear. This was a decision that was made. There is not a nuance here. Neglect requires a lack of care. This cannot be demonstrated at all. They are said to have loved and cared for their children dearly. In fact I do not think that was ever disputed. These children were NEVER abused physically or verbally. The only thing at play here is a decision. Not neglect. People for whatever reason seem to be confusing the two. The decision was not to seek medical care. That was a decision, not lack thereof. I am not sure how their lawyer went about the defense but I sincerely doubt, he attempted to make the case there was no neglect at all and that this was a wholly made decision. Neglect in the law has very strict criteria to meet. This case in my opinion does not meet that criteria by any stretch.

    fact remains all that adds up to is your opinion
    there is NOTHING you said that makes this FACTUALLY no neglect
    subjectively it could not be
    in a persons opinion it could not be

    but thats it
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  5. #115
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    fact remains all that adds up to is your opinion
    there is NOTHING you said that makes this FACTUALLY no neglect
    subjectively it could not be
    in a persons opinion it could not be

    but thats it
    Is there a point you wish to make? Please do so soon as your Factual BS routine has become tedious. Make it interesting or I am just not going to reply.
    Semper Fidelis, Semper Liber.
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    Is there a point you wish to make? Please do so soon as your Factual BS routine has become tedious. Make it interesting or I am just not going to reply.
    ooooooooooooooOOOOOooooh noooooOOOOOoooo lol

    its already been made
    i pointed out the fact that your statement, the way it was worded, was factually wrong

    its only OPINION that you think there was no neglect

    no bs
    facts dont have to be interesting
    you not replying doesnt change the fact your statement was wrong


    that was my point and its been made

    bow your job is to accept that fact or continue to deny it, either way that fact will remain

    are you still denying that its only your opinion that it was no neglect?
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    Hence the parents have the explicit right to determine that until the children are of age to dissent.
    No, parents do not have explicit right to neglect and abuse their children under the guise of religion.

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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    No, parents do not have explicit right to neglect and abuse their children under the guise of religion.
    I have said several times so far there was NO neglect in this case. It cannot be proven. All accounts stated they were loving caring attentive parents. No neglect or abuse was involved. They made a decision. A medical decision which is their right and responsibility. Medical decisions are inherently a odds proposition. You generally stack these odds in your favor with medical care. However it can and often does turn against you. I contend they made a decision that is contrary to what you or I would have done, nothing more or less.
    I am not devotedly religious per say, but I do know and have very serious conviction about certain things, so I only have an inkling of what being devoutly religious means. They took their child's perceived religious soul into account in accordance with their beliefs which says that modern medical care is verboten. That's not neglect.
    Semper Fidelis, Semper Liber.
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    Stolen fair and square from the Capt. Courtesey himself.

  9. #119
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Just want to ask because I want to understand your stance on this...

    Are you pro-life or pro-choice? The reason I ask is often the pro-life position is predicated on the notion that a child is incapable of defending their own rights, and as such the state has a duty to step in and protect it's right to life if the parent is neglecting said right.

    In this instance, the parent is clearly neglecting the right the child has to life by disallowing the child to seek medical treatment for a life threatening disease.
    I don't agree with how you've formulated the comparison here.

    Pro-life people believe that the State should step in to prevent an abortion, not when a pregnant mother is neglecting her fetus, but when the pregnant mother is attempting to murder the fetus. You reference neglect to the fetus. I take that to mean the mother is not eating enough, is drinking or smoking during pregnancy, etc so the mother is harming the fetus through neglect. Pro-life people don't see abortion as neglect, they see it as murder.

    Now this couple, they have a belief in faith, that faith will save their child. People who don't share that faith believe that medical treatment will save their child.

    A mother about to abort her fetus doesn't have the best interests of the fetus in mind. The parents of this child did have the best interests of their child in mind. They were praying to save the child. Pro-lifers disagree with a mother's decision to abort her fetus. Outsiders disagree that these parents had the best interests of their child in mind.

    The only point where I think your analysis works is the equation of Pro-Life intervention to stop an abortion and the States intervention to save a child. In both cases we have outsiders imposing their viewpoints (mother is intent on killing her fetus and parents are going to let their child die with their praying strategy) and so intervention to stop the mother and parents is warranted.

    That last point though seriously undercuts the Pro-Choice argument. It's difficult therefore to argue that the reasoning for intervention is sound in the case of these parents but unsound in the case of abortions.

  10. #120
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    Re: Pa. couple face prison after sons' prayer deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    I have said several times so far there was NO neglect in this case. It cannot be proven. All accounts stated they were loving caring attentive parents. No neglect or abuse was involved. They made a decision. A medical decision which is their right and responsibility. Medical decisions are inherently a odds proposition. You generally stack these odds in your favor with medical care. However it can and often does turn against you. I contend they made a decision that is contrary to what you or I would have done, nothing more or less.
    I am not devotedly religious per say, but I do know and have very serious conviction about certain things, so I only have an inkling of what being devoutly religious means. They took their child's perceived religious soul into account in accordance with their beliefs which says that modern medical care is verboten. That's not neglect.
    Willfully letting an infant child suffer and die from a preventable and curable illess is neglect and abuse by almost any humane, moral and legal standards. But to do it twice.....they deserve time in prison where they can be free to believe whatever they want and never to procreate again. People take better care of their dogs than those parents did with their children.

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