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Ukraine crisis: Opposition asserts authority in Kiev

not any expert on Ukraine, but I would think having statuses of Lenin, after Yanukovich fled , would be problematic for any new gov't.

update: U.S. warns Putin against Ukraine grab amid break-up fears | Reuters ( much more at link)

In a mark of passions dividing Ukrainians along a historic faultline between Russian and Ukrainian cultures, local television in Kerch, in eastern Crimea,
showed a crowd hauling down the blue-and-yellow Ukrainian flag in front of the town hall and hoisting the white, blue and red Russian tricolor.
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The only wild card here is Russia. If Yanukovych continues this 'coup' rhetoric, he might be attempting to set the stage to legitimize Russian involvement, militarily, economic, or otherwise (by claiming the current government as rogue and maintaining his claim to the legitimate government). If Yanukovych stops this rhetoric, then I think Ukraine can breath a sigh of relief.
 
Jack Hays said:
Ukraine is doing just fine. Seems that I understand them better than you.:peace
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I see you haven't done the history re-cap than.
They are doing just fine in giving the leadership from one group of thieves to another one, otherwise yeah they are fine. :peace

Fallen.
 
Fallenangel said:
I see you haven't done the history re-cap than.
They are doing just fine in giving the leadership from one group of thieves to another one, otherwise yeah they are fine. :peace

Fallen.
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Corruption is an inheritance from the Soviet era that will take a long time to root out. I don't discount it presence among the winners as well as the losers. But in this case the winners can point to a path upward for free people. The losers could not.:peace
 
Jack Hays said:
Corruption is an inheritance from the Soviet era that will take a long time to root out. I don't discount it presence among the winners as well as the losers. But in this case the winners can point to a path upward for free people. The losers could not.:peace
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Like Timoshenko or Tyagnibok?!?
Jack, do the recent Ukrainian history re-cap and than get back to us. :peace

Fallen.
 
Fallenangel said:
Like Timoshenko or Tyagnibok?!?
Jack, do the recent Ukrainian history re-cap and than get back to us. :peace

Fallen.
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As I said earlier, I seem to have a better understanding of events there than you do. I doubt you're qualified to assess my work.:peace
 
Jack Hays said:
As I said earlier, I seem to have a better understanding of events there than you do. I doubt you're qualified to assess my work.:peace
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You showed and keep showing complete ignorance of Ukrainian politics/history already in two threads Jack.
Wherever you work, I really hope it doesn't involve analyzing the situation in "your area" i.e Ukraine. lol :peace

Fallen.
 
Fallenangel said:
You showed and keep showing complete ignorance of Ukrainian politics/history already in two threads Jack.
Wherever you work, I really hope it doesn't involve analyzing the situation in "your area" i.e Ukraine. lol :peace

Fallen.
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You're just a sore loser. I was right. You were wrong.:mrgreen:
 
Jack Hays said:
You're just a sore loser. I was right. You were wrong.:mrgreen:
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Right about what Jack? That you know nothing about Ukrainian politics/history - yeap, you indeed showed that.
lol... and you're slippin Jack, you even forgot your...:peace

Fallen.
 
Fallenangel said:
Right about what Jack? That you know nothing about Ukrainian politics/history - yeap, you indeed showed that.
lol... and you're slippin Jack, you even forgot your...:peace

Fallen.
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I knew enough to know the regime was doomed. You did not.:peace
 
Jack Hays said:
I knew enough to know the regime was doomed. You did not.:peace
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Sure you did Jack, in your own reality where you debated another poster named Fallenangel.
Now how about doing some actual Ukrainian politics/history studies. :peace

Fallen.
 
DA60 said:
Will Ukraine split in two (pro EU/pro Russia)?
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No, they won't.

Separatist movements exist within Ukraine, as they exist in most European countries, but haven't go the support of neither the people or the government or anyone of any value behind them. Even russian separatists have no support in eastern Ukraine.
 
Fallenangel said:
Sure you did Jack, in your own reality where you debated another poster named Fallenangel.
Now how about doing some actual Ukrainian politics/history studies. :peace

Fallen.
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As demonstrated, I already know the subject better than you. You are dismissed to continue your studies. Come back when you know enough to be worth debating.:peace
 
Jack Hays said:
You're just a sore loser. I was right. You were wrong.:mrgreen:
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No, Jack.

While Fallen is... well lets say he provides a different angle to the whole story, what he speaks is at least founded in some intellectual basis and informational know-how. For instance ,the idea that a new group of thieves will just assume leadership before and after the elections is not just a very real threat, it's a concern I share too. You on the other hand, do nothing but poison this thread.
 
Rainman05 said:
No, Jack.

While Fallen is... well lets say he provides a different angle to the whole story, what he speaks is at least founded in some intellectual basis and informational know-how. For instance ,the idea that a new group of thieves will just assume leadership before and after the elections is not just a very real threat, it's a concern I share too. You on the other hand, do nothing but poison this thread.
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I understand as well the likelihood that a successor regime will not be free of corruption. I have spent years living and working in such environments. I have not, however, lost faith in the redemptive power of freedom and national liberation. Nor have I forgotten the evil that accompanied Soviet power. If you have lost that faith or forgotten that evil then I suggest it is not I whose posts "poison" this thread.:peace
 
Jack Hays said:
As demonstrated, I already know the subject better than you. You are dismissed to continue your studies. Come back when you know enough to be worth debating.:peace
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I'm sure you managed to demonstrate it very well to your self in your own personal virtual reality.
However, real people that actually understand the situation in Ukraine are far from being as ignorant of reality as you.

So...how about them Ukrainian studies, too hard?...cause I see you're still failing every exam and class. Keep working hard, I'm sure eventually you'd get it. :peace

Fallen.
 
Jack Hays said:
I understand as well the likelihood that a successor regime will not be free of corruption. I have spent years living and working in such environments. I have not, however, lost faith in the redemptive power of freedom and national liberation. Nor have I forgotten the evil that accompanied Soviet power. If you have lost that faith or forgotten that evil then I suggest it is not I whose posts "poison" this thread.:peace
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You see, if this would be in a vacuum, I would agree with you, but as it isn't, because I take into consideration the rest of the comments you made, at least in the last 3 pages, while theoretically you know what you're talking about, in practice, you don't.

So now there is an interim govt, headed as president by the senate majority leader which was part of the opposition until now.

The question is the following: will he safeguard the elections to come or "manipulate" the votes or the electorate? I have stated, for the last 3 months, ever since this thing started, that if the places were reversed, and the opposition had been the ruling party, they too would have fought tooth and nail to remain in power and nothing would have been different. The opposition is no better than the others... they're all mostly cut from the same cloth.

We saw this not too long ago with the rise and swift fall of the "orange revolution" to which Tymoshenko, I feel, contributed the most to it's downfall, the movement that rose her to power, she killed it quickly because she sold out ukraine's interests, just like Yanukovych did 3 months ago.

So while people are now optimistic in the streets of Kiev, who wouldn't be after what happened Friday... reality will set in on monday morning rather brutally and a new set of challenges await... for both the electorate, especially for them... and for the now ruling govt and the political class... what will they do? will they continue to be corrupt or will they reform their ways? The opposition (now sort of in power) is almost just as bad as the ruling party (not so much ruling anymore... but still kinda). The problem with political parties is that if they all are rotten, no matter who you vote for, you'll still end up nowhere.

Faith alone is not sufficient to contribute to this thread effectively. If you are unaware of what has happened in the post-soviet era, you cannot effectively make informed posts in this thread, which for the last 2-3 pages, you haven't. It's been a penis-measuring contest between you and fallen, with you being the one with the wooden penis. Sure, it may seem longer, but at the end of the day, it's just an illusion.
 
Fallenangel said:
I'm sure you managed to demonstrate it very well to your self in your own personal virtual reality.
However, real people that actually understand the situation in Ukraine are far from being as ignorant of reality as you.

So...how about them Ukrainian studies, too hard?...cause I see you're still failing every exam and class. Keep working hard, I'm sure eventually you'd get it. :peace

Fallen.
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Rainman05 said:
You see, if this would be in a vacuum, I would agree with you, but as it isn't, because I take into consideration the rest of the comments you made, at least in the last 3 pages, while theoretically you know what you're talking about, in practice, you don't.

So now there is an interim govt, headed as president by the senate majority leader which was part of the opposition until now.

The question is the following: will he safeguard the elections to come or "manipulate" the votes or the electorate? I have stated, for the last 3 months, ever since this thing started, that if the places were reversed, and the opposition had been the ruling party, they too would have fought tooth and nail to remain in power and nothing would have been different. The opposition is no better than the others... they're all mostly cut from the same cloth.

We saw this not too long ago with the rise and swift fall of the "orange revolution" to which Tymoshenko, I feel, contributed the most to it's downfall, the movement that rose her to power, she killed it quickly because she sold out ukraine's interests, just like Yanukovych did 3 months ago.

So while people are now optimistic in the streets of Kiev, who wouldn't be after what happened Friday... reality will set in on monday morning rather brutally and a new set of challenges await... for both the electorate, especially for them... and for the now ruling govt and the political class... what will they do? will they continue to be corrupt or will they reform their ways? The opposition (now sort of in power) is almost just as bad as the ruling party (not so much ruling anymore... but still kinda). The problem with political parties is that if they all are rotten, no matter who you vote for, you'll still end up nowhere.

Faith alone is not sufficient to contribute to this thread effectively. If you are unaware of what has happened in the post-soviet era, you cannot effectively make informed posts in this thread, which for the last 2-3 pages, you haven't. It's been a penis-measuring contest between you and fallen, with you being the one with the wooden penis. Sure, it may seem longer, but at the end of the day, it's just an illusion.
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I don't know whether ignorance or resignation is worse. You two represent both. The former opposition, now the government, is not made up entirely of angels, and Ukrainians' hopes have come to nothing before. The difference this time is the thorough discrediting of the Putin faction and the outstretched hand of the EU. Nonetheless much of modern Ukraine's political division reflects cultural and geographic divergences that have not gone away. It is therefore quite possible that the east will reject the new government and there will be enough room for the pro-Putin party to mount a credible campaign. My guess would be that they will fall short if the election really comes soon. I also suspect that west Ukraine would more likely secede and form a new state than live again under a pro-Putin regime. It will be bumpy ride regardless.:peace
 
Fallenangel said:
What good reason?!? Being Nazi apologist like you?!?
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There is a good reason to stop the apology of communist crimes and to debunk their lies.

And it is a good thing to remove the monuments of communist murderers and liars.

BTW, I am not a "Nazi-apologist", I am just a truth seeker and I hate lies and liars.

Stupid communists always called their opponents "Nazis", but that could not save their Empire of Evil from collapse.

And calling the opposition in the Ukraine "Nazis" and "Anti-Semites" did not help, either.

Calling a spade a spade, concerning the Katyn massacre, was also called "Nazi apology".

But the truth about the Katyn massacre (despite the help of the Western allies to perpetuate the Soviet lie about the Katyn) eventually became known to everybody.

Several memorials of the massacre have been erected worldwide. During the Cold War, the British government objected to plans to build a major Katyn monument in the UK.[115][116][117] The Soviet Union did not want the Katyn massacre to be remembered, and demanded that the British government prevent the erection of the monument.[117][118][e] The British government did not want to antagonize the Soviets...

Katyn massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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We know today, that Communists and their western allies were the liars, and that National Socialists told the truth in this case.

Well, I am concerned about the truth.

If Communists lied about some events, and National Socialists told the truth, well, then advocating the truth does not mean "Nazi apology", it means "truth apology" and debunking the lies.

Can you get my drift?
 
Jack Hays said:
I don't know whether ignorance or resignation is worse. You two represent both. The former opposition, now the government, is not made up entirely of angels, and Ukrainians' hopes have come to nothing before. The difference this time is the thorough discrediting of the Putin faction and the outstretched hand of the EU. Nonetheless much of modern Ukraine's political division reflects cultural and geographic divergences that have not gone away. It is therefore quite possible that the east will reject the new government and there will be enough room for the pro-Putin party to mount a credible campaign. My guess would be that they will fall short if the election really comes soon. I also suspect that west Ukraine would more likely secede and form a new state than live again under a pro-Putin regime. It will be bumpy ride regardless.:peace
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Wow Jack I see that you actually did some studying, congrats. Unfortunately you get only B- due to the multiple references to amorphous ideals, and some "non existing pro-Putin party". Keep working on these books, maybe in few weeks from now you'd get an A. :peace

Fallen.
 
Could you guys start your own thread to hurl insults at each other?
 
Fallenangel said:
Wow Jack I see that you actually did some studying, congrats. Unfortunately you get only B- due to the multiple references to amorphous ideals, and some "non existing pro-Putin party". Keep working on these books, maybe in few weeks from now you'd get an A. :peace

Fallen.
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"The dogs may bark, but the caravan moves on.":peace
 
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