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Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Cryptic said:
Sigh, the Declaration of Independence is not U.S. law. Rather, it is a declaration of political independence pure and simple. Are you sure that you have enough knowledge on this subject matter to be shouting?

If you dont believe me, point out a component of the Declaration of Independence that establishes a law. The DOI expresses alot of ideals, but does not create law.

In fact, Wikipedia calls it what it is: A declaration (of course, it is a very eloquent declaration that serves as the founding philosophy of our nation, but it is not law- and it sure the heck is not "US code page 1".
United States Declaration of Independence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There have got to be some libertarians out there who can make cogent arguments.
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The Organic Laws of The United States of America

The Organic Laws of The United States of America | Adask's law

An organic or fundamental law is a law or system of laws which forms the foundation of a government, corporation or other organization's body of rules. A constitution is a particular form of organic law for a sovereign state.

Organic laws of the United States of America
Main article: Organic Act

The Organic Laws of the United States of America can be found in Volume One of the United States Code which contains the General and Permanent Laws of the United States. U.S. Code (2007)[1] defines the organic laws of the United States of America to include the Declaration of Independence of July 4, 1776, the Articles of Confederation of November 15, 1777, the Northwest Ordinance of July 13, 1787, and the Constitution of September 17, 1787.[2]

Merriam-Webster defines “organic” as; “of, relating to, or constituting the law by which a government or organization exists”.

In the front of the United States Code, Volume One, you will see the title, Organic Laws of the United States of America.

The four Organic Laws listed in the order of their occurrence, are The Declaration of Independence, The Articles of Confederation, the Northwest Ordinance of 1787 and the 1787 Constitution of the United States.

http://organiclaws.org/
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

WHAT CONSTITUTES “ORGANIC LAWS”?
The purpose of this document is simple:
•
To show evidence that the House of Representatives acknowledges the
presence of “Organic Laws”.
•
To show evidence that the “Organic Laws” per the U.S. House of
Representatives contain the:
ARTICLES OF CONFEDERATION--1777
THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE--1776
THE ORDINANCE OF 1787—THE NORTHWEST TERRITORIAL
GOVERNMENT
CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED
STATES OF AMERICA--1787
•
To show evidence that the official portal for government publications on
laws—the Government Printing Offi
ce—recognizes and publishes copies
of these “Organic Laws” as late as year 2000.
•
To provide copies of these “Organic La
ws” in one convenient document.
ORGANIC LAWS (Black’s 5
th
edition):
The fundamental law, or
constitution, of a state
or nation, written or unwritt
en. That law or system of laws
or principles which defines
and establishes the organization of its government


The Law Dictionary Featuring Black's Law Dictionary Free Online Legal Dictionary 2nd Ed.

Law Dictionary: G Information and Definitions from Black's Law Dictionary


What is ORGANIC LAW?

The fundamental law, or constitution, of a state or nation, written or unwritten; that law or system of laws or principles which defines and establishes the organization of its government. St. Louis v. Dorr, 145 Mo. 400, 40 S. Y. 970, 42 L. R. A. OSG, OS Am. St. Rep. 575.

Law Dictionary: What is ORGANIC LAW? definition of ORGANIC LAW (Black's Law Dictionary)
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

ernst barkmann said:
WHAT CONSTITUTES “ORGANIC LAWS”?
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Ok, I stand corrected. The principals of the Declaration of Independence is a law under the definition of "organic law" ie principals on which the US was founded. I acknowledged this earlier , though I did not use the term "organic law".
Cryptic said:
In fact, Wikipedia calls it what it is: A declaration (of course, it is a very eloquent declaration that serves as the founding philosophy of our nation, but it is not law-
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This, however, is not the subject of our original discussion:

Can states enforce the concept of mutual interdependence amongst members of a society?

I say, that yes, all societies that ever existed have done so.
 
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Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Grant said:
That's really a commercial, and little more.
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true, but i have provided other material.

The Declaration of Independence Part of American Law

Professor John Eidsmoe writes:

"The role of the Declaration of Independence in American law is often misconstrued. Some believe the Declaration is simply a statement of ideas that has no legal force whatsoever today. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Declaration has been repeatedly cited by the U.S. Supreme Court as part of the fundamental law of the United States of America.

"The United States Code Annotated includes the Declaration of Independence under the heading 'The Organic Laws of the United States of America' along with the Articles of Confederation, the Constitution, and the Northwest Ordinance. Enabling acts frequently require states to adhere to the principles of the Declaration; in the Enabling Act of June 16, 1906, Congress authorized Oklahoma Territory to take steps to become a state. Section 3 provides that the Oklahoma Constitution 'shall not be repugnant to the Constitution of the United States and the principles of the Declaration of Independence.' (Christianity and the Constitution, pp. 360-361)

http://www.nccs.net/1998-06-the-declaration-of-independence-part-of-american-law.php
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Cryptic said:
Can states enforce the concept of mutual interdependence amongst members of a society?

I say, that yes, all societies that ever existed have done so.
Click to expand...


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

we as a people institute government to secure the rights of the people, not the feelings of the people.

if i am not committing a crime, or a violation of health and saftey, ...by what authority of a Constitution, ...[where government derives its power] have to force me to do something against my will. and violate my rights.

13th--Section 1.
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

ernst barkmann said:
[/B]
if i am not committing a crime, or a violation of health and saftey, ...by what authority of a Constitution, ...[where government derives its power] have to force me to do something against my will. and violate my rights.
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In short just because you are:
A- not committing a crime
B- not a violation of health and safety

Does not mean you are automatically and completely free to do what ever you want. This is due to an unwritten social contract based on the concept of a mutual interdependence between members of a society ( the extent of that interdependence can vary considerably).

You will argue that this contract does not exist, but all societies have held that it does exist. Examples of the provisions of this contract include:

-Concept is that all societies have some expectation that members will serve in the common defense. A society may give allowance, but none have voided the concept.

- Concept that no property absolutely belongs to any sole individual. Rather, the society as a whole still retains some control over that property. Of course, this societal control can be very extreme (Maoism) to very, very nominal.

- Concept that members can be compeled give recesources for the common good of the society (taxes, provided goods, provided services etc) - even if they dont benefit directly from the provision of those services. As with the other two concepts, the degree that members are compeled can vary considerably
 
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Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Cryptic said:
I have answered that here:
Click to expand...


then you should know government has no authority to force you to do anything if no crime has been committed, or health and saftey of people is endangered.

13th--Section 1.
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Involuntary Servitude

Slavery; the condition of an individual who works for another individual against his or her will as a result of force, coercion, or imprisonment, regardless of whether the individual is paid for the labor.

Involuntary Servitude legal definition of Involuntary Servitude. Involuntary Servitude synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

ernst barkmann said:
then you should know government has no authority to force you to do anything if no crime has been committed, or health and saftey of people is endangered.

13th--Section 1.
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Involuntary Servitude

Slavery; the condition of an individual who works for another individual against his or her will as a result of force, coercion, or imprisonment, regardless of whether the individual is paid for the labor.
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Nope, you are obligated to provide for the mutual defense of society. More specifically, the US does not define conscription for either the military or national work as "slavery" or "involuntary servitude".

Its part of the unwritten social contract...
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Cryptic said:
Nope, you are obligated to provide for the mutual defense of society. More specifically, the US does not define conscription for either the military or national work as "slavery" or "involuntary servitude"
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the court has ruled, involuntary servitude does not apply to the military.

and i am not obligated to do anything.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

ernst barkmann said:
the court has ruled, involuntary servitude does not apply to the military.

and i am not obligated to do anything.
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I dont understand your post:

If the court has ruled that military conscription / national work is not involuntary servitude, then you are obligated to do these things if lawfully ordered to.

Of course, you could refuse your obligation, but then you would face a punishment (which under current practice is very nominal). If one were to forcefully resist a lawful order obligating conscription / national work, the punishment could be more severe.

At the end of the day, this just shows the government can lawfully obligate unwilling service. Nobody is free from the obligation to refuse this part of the unwritten social contract - ie contribute towards a defense of their society.
 
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Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Cryptic said:
I dont understand your post:

If the court has ruled that military conscription / national work is not involuntary servitude, then you are obligated to do these things if lawfully ordered to. Of course, you could refuse your obligation, but then you would face a punishment (which under current practice is very nominal).
Click to expand...

the court has stated in the past ...way back, that the draft was not involuntary servitude. because it is not one citizen serving another citizen.....which is what involuntary servitude is.

your problem is you believe rights are collective [ democracy], and that society determines what rights are [ which is what France does], and how people will exercise them, this is not the case, the founders are clear rights are individual rights.

a collective body in your mind has a lien on my rights and choose them for me,...........however.....unalienable, means no lien can be placed on them.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

ernst barkmann said:
true, but i have provided other material.

The Declaration of Independence Part of American Law

Professor John Eidsmoe writes:

"The role of the Declaration of Independence in American law is often misconstrued. Some believe the Declaration is simply a statement of ideas that has no legal force whatsoever today. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Declaration has been repeatedly cited by the U.S. Supreme Court as part of the fundamental law of the United States of America.

"The United States Code Annotated includes the Declaration of Independence under the heading 'The Organic Laws of the United States of America' along with the Articles of Confederation, the Constitution, and the Northwest Ordinance. Enabling acts frequently require states to adhere to the principles of the Declaration; in the Enabling Act of June 16, 1906, Congress authorized Oklahoma Territory to take steps to become a state. Section 3 provides that the Oklahoma Constitution 'shall not be repugnant to the Constitution of the United States and the principles of the Declaration of Independence.' (Christianity and the Constitution, pp. 360-361)

The Declaration of Independence Part of American Law
Click to expand...

Thanks for all that information and have noticed that many of those who signed the Declaration of Independence also signed the Constitution. Obviously there was a great deal of like mindedness going on.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Grant said:
Thanks for all that information and have noticed that many of those who signed the Declaration of Independence also signed the Constitution. Obviously there was a great deal of like mindedness going on.
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Madison is the brains behind the constitution, he borrowed books from Jefferson, before the Constitutional convention, and read up on governments of the world's past and why the fail.

then he laid the foundation for our government [using what he learned from the books as to not fail ]months before the constitutional convention, by stating it in letters to Jefferson and Washington...the best one is dated march 19th 1787 between Jefferson and Madison
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Cryptic said:
I dont understand your post:

If the court has ruled that military conscription / national work is not involuntary servitude, then you are obligated to do these things if lawfully ordered to.

Of course, you could refuse your obligation, but then you would face a punishment (which under current practice is very nominal). If one were to forcefully resist a lawful order obligating conscription / national work, the punishment could be more severe.

At the end of the day, this just shows the government can lawfully obligate unwilling service. Nobody is free from the obligation to refuse this part of the unwritten social contract - ie contribute towards a defense of their society.
Click to expand...

under the constitution of the founders, conscription would be unconstitutional.

because it violates the founding principles.

but government has been violating the constitution, and the founding principles long before you and i were ever born.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Top Cat said:
Priceless.



I am sure you feel the same way about racism.
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No racism is something people admit to and therefore easily proven
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451]

Top Cat said:
LOL Sure they do!
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They do, try paying attention.

Racisim is a way of thinking and sometimes acting on how one thinks.

The KKK and others openly admit to being racist even if sometimes rationalizing why.

Homophobia however is merely an imaginary fear ascribed to others which is untestable and therefore unprovable and simply a concept used to avoid reasonable discussion.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451]

Watch Anderson Cooper destroy this moron who wants to run for Gov in AZ... Al Melvin...or as we call him.....MELLLLLLLLLVINNNNNNN!



This is the face of the bigots that want this to be law.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451]

do you have a potential DEM candidate?
beefheart said:
Watch Anderson Cooper destroy this moron who wants to run for Gov in AZ... Al Melvin...or as we call him.....MELLLLLLLLLVINNNNNNN!



This is the face of the bigots that want this to be law.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451]

Soupnazi630 said:
Homophobia however is merely an imaginary fear ascribed to others which is untestable and therefore unprovable and simply a concept used to avoid reasonable discussion.
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Unless the homophobes actually say it out loud, as they often do on this board, as you say the KKK does in real life .
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451]

NIMBY said:
do you have a potential DEM candidate?
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Yes, one respected Dem, with no one running against him, versus 7 or 8 republicans, one is pretty good, the others are all MELVINNNNS!
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451]

Jerry said:
I knew a couple people who worked at walmart and refused to sell alcohol or tobacco when cheering. They just put the same sign on their register that employees under 18/21 used. It was never an issue that I'm aware of.
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When 'cheering?'

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that they were not informing their managers of their actions and that they'd have been fired if they made it known and persisted.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451]

Apologies for being on vacation and missing the earlier part of the thread.

I'm scanning.

What discussion has there been about those religious folks that are still serving the fornicators and the adulterers? The divorcees? How is the "lying with a man" sin different from those others? According to the Bible, it's not any better or worse.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

eohrnberger said:
All the pro-LGBT cohersion doesn't come with out some backlash, and now you don't like it. Could have left sleeping dogs lie, but no.
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Yes, people really resented women and blacks when they fought for their civil rights too. All that petitioning, and marching, and protesting, and overstepping their 'places' in society....how inconvenient! It was so annoying!
 
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