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Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Translation: I want the right of free homophobic expression.

Nope we already have that right.

No need to want what we already have.

The right to free association is what is being violated and yes it is a human right.

Your attempt to spin is a failure.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

First of all, this hypothetical black person is a moron for living in such a town. That's like living on the side of an active volcano, the. Bitching and moaning when it erupts.

You simply move to a new town and shop at a pharmacy that wants your money. Somebody, somewhere wants that persons money.

And yes, his property rights should be upheld, the same way the property rights of said black person should be upheld. Now if this was some taxpayer funded clinic, ID have a problem with that. But I have no problem with somebody exercising their property rights.

Somehow I figured that situation would wind up being the black guy's fault. Supposing there is no town close by. Supposing he works in that town and his children go to school in that town.

So your answer is , yes, you'd rather see the black guy die than require the pharmacy to provide him with medicine. As I said, amazing.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Somehow I figured that situation would wind up being the black guy's fault. Supposing there is no town close by. Supposing he works in that town and his children go to school in that town.

So your answer is , yes, you'd rather see the black guy die than require the pharmacy to provide him with medicine. As I said, amazing.

Then he should definitely move. He should never be granted access to someone elses private property. If someone doesnt want you on their property, they shouldnt have to allow you there. For whatever reason.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Somehow I figured that situation would wind up being the black guy's fault. Supposing there is no town close by. Supposing he works in that town and his children go to school in that town.

So your answer is , yes, you'd rather see the black guy die than require the pharmacy to provide him with medicine. As I said, amazing.

lol yep thank good our country is nothing like that


thankfully our constitution, country, rights and laws aren't that mentally retarded, inept and asinine. Im glad my country protects my freedoms and rights.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

lol yep thank good our country is nothing like that


thankfully our constitution, country, rights and laws aren't that mentally retarded, inept and asinine. Im glad my country protects my freedoms and rights.

You mean like the right to other people's private property, personal labor and service?
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

You mean like the right to other people's private property, personal labor and service?

you must be severely confused and in the wrong thread
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

If a business owner in running his business is not committing a crime or violating health and safety code, then by what authority in a constitution does it give goverment power tp apply force on the business's owner?

Goverment is here to secure rights,not to force people to do things agonist there will, just because government wants a particular outcome.
 
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Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Because Phoenix was founded late, it was able to be designed for people who have cars. So you don't have narrow one way alleys and people living on top of each other. Other cities envy us for being spread out, you need to be spread out here, especially on a day like today where it will be near 80 degrees and you can lay out in the sun...or go hiking, etc....
I'm not disagreeing with you. Phoenix has some good qualities. But, all that being said....it still isn't much of a "city"....its more of a suburb.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

If you wish to read Arizona's anti-gay bill, here it is Bill Text: AZ SB1062 | 2014

It has some rather interesting statements, for instance
Definitions: 2. "Exercise of religion" means the PRACTICE OR OBSERVANCE OF RELIGION, INCLUDING THE ability to act or refusal to act in a manner substantially motivated by a religious belief, whether or not the exercise is compulsory or central to a larger system of religious belief.

then there is the stated requirement as to who and what is a "person"
5. "Person" includes ANY INDIVIDUAL, ASSOCIATION, PARTNERSHIP, CORPORATION, CHURCH, RELIGIOUS ASSEMBLY OR INSTITUTION, ESTATE, TRUST, FOUNDATION OR OTHER LEGAL ENTITY.

Here's the section that will kick Arizona in the 'nads if the Governor signs SB 1062 into law
41-1493.01. Free exercise of religion protected; definition
A. Free exercise of religion is a fundamental right that applies in this state even if laws, rules or other government actions are facially neutral.
B. Except as provided in subsection C, OF THIS SECTION, STATE ACTION shall not substantially burden a person's exercise of religion even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability.

As soon as I read it, my first thought was "They just legalised Mormon and Muslim polygamy!!"

Hatred of one class of citizens certainly does seem to cause blindness in regards to all possible consequences. Then of course there is the ever so small matter that business groups across the state are protesting the passage of SB 1062. I wonder why that might be, after all doesn't this bill give businesses free rein in choosing their customers. :roll:

and finally, another example of hypocrisy; one often reads about "tort reform" as a means of reducing medical costs. "Tort reform", as it is used in these rants, is taken as an excuse to reduce rewards when a doctor or hospital loses a court case by either putting a cap on the amount the plaintiff may receive or by reducing the instances in whch liability is incurred by medical professionals. SB 1062 increases the possibility for legal complaints against all governmental bodies whenever a "person" (remember this includes corporations) feels unduly burdened by government actions.
D. A person whose religious exercise is burdened in violation of this section may assert that violation as a claim or defense in a judicial proceeding, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE GOVERNMENT IS A PARTY TO THE PROCEEDING. THE PERSON ASSERTING SUCH A CLAIM OR DEFENSE MAY OBTAIN APPROPRIATE RELIEF. A party who prevails in any action to enforce this article against a government shall recover attorney fees and costs.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

To be fair, as I understand it, the law allows for the denial of service based on religious beliefs and is not restricted to one set of beliefs, that being related to gay and lesbian customers.

That said, I think it's ludicrous. And doesn't your constitution state that - to paraphrase - no law shall be adopted that promotes or denies religious observance?

Even if it wasn't idiotic, administration of such a law will be a nightmare.



shhhhhhh....Don't say that too loud.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

I'm not disagreeing with you. Phoenix has some good qualities. But, all that being said....it still isn't much of a "city"....its more of a suburb.

Nice golf courses in the winter. Other than that...Spring training is fun. That's it for me. Oh, it is a reasonable drive to Sedona.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Your attempt at life is a failure. See how easy that is.

Not easy at all.

The fact that I can post proves I am alive and therefore no attempt was made at a succesful life I simply have one.

You onher hand simply tried to spin and did an poor job of it.

The right to free association is a real right everyone has and government has no business interfering. Homophobia on the other hand is merely a fringe concept used primarily to save face when losing an argument or debate which is even remotely related to gay people.

You did not translate succesfully as you claim your attempt to spin was childish and dishonest.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

If a store is selling goods, then I don't think they should be able to discriminate on the basis of any of the discussed social demographics: age, gender, race, ethnicity, gender orientation. Not wearing shoes or a shirt or those types of things, yes they should be allowed.

I feel differently about personal services. A hair dresser, a masseuse and yes, a photographer should be able to make that judgment whether they want to provide that personal service or not and for whatever reason they see fit. A plumber, roofer or other trade I don't see as a personal service. The main profession I don't have an answer for is healthcare provider.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

If a business owner in running his business is not committing a crime or violating health and safety code, then by what authority in a constitution does it give goverment power tp apply force on the business's owner?

Goverment is here to secure rights,not to force people to do things agonist there will, just because government wants a particular outcome.

Because the governemnt has a legitimate interest in a smoothly running society. Discrimination based on race, sex, etc. tends to be disruptive. That aside, private individuals running a commerical business should be required to provide service to all, but not contracts.

When applied to say gay marriage it could be:

-Cake baker must serve gays, blacks, native americans, whites, asians etc by allowing them to buy cakes at his store.
-Cake baker does not need to accept a contract to customize a cake saying "Adam and Steve are married"

Rather, gays are just sold a cake and they can put what they want on it. Likewise, neo confedrates can shop for and buy a t-shirt from the black T-shirt printer. But, he can decline a contract to customize it with the CSA battle flag.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Interesting little story from a small town paper in Arizona

Brewer to weigh in on controversial bill | The Sierra Vista Herald

PHOENIX — Gov. Jan Brewer returns to work Tuesday to face a rising chorus of Republican and business voices urging her to quickly quash SB 1062. Sen. Steve Pierce, R-Prescott, who previously had been Senate president, told Capitol Media Services Sunday he now thinks the legislation, billed as providing protections for those of faith, is a bad idea. That is significant since Pierce provided one of the 17 votes that got it out of the Senate last week.

“I screwed up,” he told Capitol Media Services. “I’m trying to make it right.”

U.S. Sen. Jeff Flake joined the fray, sending a Tweet on Sunday urging Brewer to veto the measure passed with only the votes of Republicans like he is.

Glenn Hamer, president of the Arizona Chamber of Commerce and Industry, also said Sunday Brewer should kill the bill as bad for business. And Kristin Jarnagin, vice president of the Arizona Lodging and Tourism Association said just the fact that the Legislature approved the measure has resulted in cancelled trips.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

If a business owner in running his business is not committing a crime or violating health and safety code, then by what authority in a constitution does it give goverment power tp apply force on the business's owner?

Goverment is here to secure rights,not to force people to do things agonist there will, just because government wants a particular outcome.

Spoken like a true admirer of the Waffen SS. Ernst would be so proud.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Then he should definitely move. He should never be granted access to someone elses private property. If someone doesnt want you on their property, they shouldnt have to allow you there. For whatever reason.

So the smart thing for him to do would be, before he moves, check with every single business in the new town to make sure they serve black people. As I said, you are a segregationist - or at least a segregationist sympathizer. You'd rather have the black guy die than receive drugs at the local KKK pharmacy. Stunning, but par for the course for Libertarians - who don't give a damn about people, just property.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

you must be severely confused and in the wrong thread

He's just longing for the days of Bull Connor keeping those black folks out of Woolworths with fire hoses and police dogs. Remember, this is the Rand Paul philosophy.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Because the governemnt has a legitimate interest in a smoothly running society. Discrimination based on race, sex, etc. tends to be disruptive. That aside, private individuals running a commerical business should be required to provide service to all, but not contracts.

When applied to say gay marriage it could be:

-Cake baker must serve gays, blacks, native americans, whites, asians etc by allowing them to buy cakes at his store.
-Cake baker does not need to accept a contract to customize a cake saying "Adam and Steve are married"

Rather, gays are just sold a cake and they can put what they want on it. Likewise, neo confedrates can shop for and buy a t-shirt from the black T-shirt printer. But, he can decline a contract to customize it with the CSA battle flag.

is government here to feed, cloth, put shelter over your head, force you to behave in a moral fashion.........no

government is instituted to secure rights of the people, ..which is the fundamental law of the u.s.....the DOI

if rights did not need to be secured, governments would not need to exist,...James Madison--"if men were angels no government would be necessary"

since rights being secure is the fundamental basis of government's existence , then how can government use force on people who have not infringed on another person rights [which is a crime], or violated health and saftey laws [business regulation]?

all your explaining to me is......... because someone would be mad at another person, and have his feelings hurt, and government needs to force people to do business with people they do not wish to.......feelings are not protected by Constitutions.

their is no right to be served, ......however every citizen does have right to property, and right to association, ....these are rights, so tell me how government can violate those rights of the people, just because they don't like how someone behaves, which is not unlawful.

our constitution is written for government only, and it states clearly the government cannot use force on a citizen to make him serve another citizen, unless a crime has been committed.....discrimination is not a crime.

the court case in CO, was an administrative law case, with an administrative judge presiding over it.

again...how can government use force on anyone to do something they do not wish to do, if they have committed no crime or not endangered anyone, ...by the fundamental laws of our nation, ..............government has no authority to do........... anything on the matter of discrimination between private citizens/business.
 
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Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

you must be severely confused and in the wrong thread

Don't you believe that you have a right to walk onto anyone's property? Don't you believe people are obligated to serve you if they happen to run a business?
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

He's just longing for the days of Bull Connor keeping those black folks out of Woolworths with fire hoses and police dogs. Remember, this is the Rand Paul philosophy.

No that is not the rand Paul philosophy. You are seriously confused.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

So the smart thing for him to do would be, before he moves, check with every single business in the new town to make sure they serve black people. As I said, you are a segregationist - or at least a segregationist sympathizer. You'd rather have the black guy die than receive drugs at the local KKK pharmacy. Stunning, but par for the course for Libertarians - who don't give a damn about people, just property.

Do you seriously believe he should be entitled to that mans property and services? That mans labor and business? What place does he have to force that man to allow him on the property and do business with him?
If you just happen to run a business, that means you become everyone's slave? I don't think so. Just because you happen to be in business, that doesn't mean everyone else is entitled to your business.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Goverment is here to secure rights

I assumed the right not to be discriminated against in a big way (voting, commerce, etc.) is the right being protected.
 
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