Page 64 of 122 FirstFirst ... 1454626364656674114 ... LastLast
Results 631 to 640 of 1212

Thread: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

  1. #631
    Mixed Government advocate
    Master PO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    93,000,000 miles from Earth where its very Hot
    Last Seen
    11-30-17 @ 01:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    31,331

    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post



    Can states enforce the concept of mutual interdependence amongst members of a society?

    I say, that yes, all societies that ever existed have done so.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

    we as a people institute government to secure the rights of the people, not the feelings of the people.

    if i am not committing a crime, or a violation of health and saftey, ...by what authority of a Constitution, ...[where government derives its power] have to force me to do something against my will. and violate my rights.

    13th--Section 1.
    Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

  2. #632
    Guru

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Last Seen
    12-12-17 @ 11:27 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    3,899

    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    [/B]
    if i am not committing a crime, or a violation of health and saftey, ...by what authority of a Constitution, ...[where government derives its power] have to force me to do something against my will. and violate my rights.
    In short just because you are:
    A- not committing a crime
    B- not a violation of health and safety

    Does not mean you are automatically and completely free to do what ever you want. This is due to an unwritten social contract based on the concept of a mutual interdependence between members of a society ( the extent of that interdependence can vary considerably).

    You will argue that this contract does not exist, but all societies have held that it does exist. Examples of the provisions of this contract include:

    -Concept is that all societies have some expectation that members will serve in the common defense. A society may give allowance, but none have voided the concept.

    - Concept that no property absolutely belongs to any sole individual. Rather, the society as a whole still retains some control over that property. Of course, this societal control can be very extreme (Maoism) to very, very nominal.

    - Concept that members can be compeled give recesources for the common good of the society (taxes, provided goods, provided services etc) - even if they dont benefit directly from the provision of those services. As with the other two concepts, the degree that members are compeled can vary considerably
    Last edited by Cryptic; 02-24-14 at 07:30 PM.

  3. #633
    Mixed Government advocate
    Master PO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    93,000,000 miles from Earth where its very Hot
    Last Seen
    11-30-17 @ 01:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    31,331

    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I have answered that here:

    then you should know government has no authority to force you to do anything if no crime has been committed, or health and saftey of people is endangered.

    13th--Section 1.
    Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

    Involuntary Servitude

    Slavery; the condition of an individual who works for another individual against his or her will as a result of force, coercion, or imprisonment, regardless of whether the individual is paid for the labor.

    Involuntary Servitude legal definition of Involuntary Servitude. Involuntary Servitude synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

  4. #634
    Guru

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Last Seen
    12-12-17 @ 11:27 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    3,899

    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    then you should know government has no authority to force you to do anything if no crime has been committed, or health and saftey of people is endangered.

    13th--Section 1.
    Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

    Involuntary Servitude

    Slavery; the condition of an individual who works for another individual against his or her will as a result of force, coercion, or imprisonment, regardless of whether the individual is paid for the labor.
    Nope, you are obligated to provide for the mutual defense of society. More specifically, the US does not define conscription for either the military or national work as "slavery" or "involuntary servitude".

    Its part of the unwritten social contract...

  5. #635
    Mixed Government advocate
    Master PO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    93,000,000 miles from Earth where its very Hot
    Last Seen
    11-30-17 @ 01:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    31,331

    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Nope, you are obligated to provide for the mutual defense of society. More specifically, the US does not define conscription for either the military or national work as "slavery" or "involuntary servitude"
    the court has ruled, involuntary servitude does not apply to the military.

    and i am not obligated to do anything.

  6. #636
    Guru

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Last Seen
    12-12-17 @ 11:27 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    3,899

    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    the court has ruled, involuntary servitude does not apply to the military.

    and i am not obligated to do anything.
    I dont understand your post:

    If the court has ruled that military conscription / national work is not involuntary servitude, then you are obligated to do these things if lawfully ordered to.

    Of course, you could refuse your obligation, but then you would face a punishment (which under current practice is very nominal). If one were to forcefully resist a lawful order obligating conscription / national work, the punishment could be more severe.

    At the end of the day, this just shows the government can lawfully obligate unwilling service. Nobody is free from the obligation to refuse this part of the unwritten social contract - ie contribute towards a defense of their society.
    Last edited by Cryptic; 02-24-14 at 07:55 PM.

  7. #637
    Mixed Government advocate
    Master PO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    93,000,000 miles from Earth where its very Hot
    Last Seen
    11-30-17 @ 01:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    31,331

    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I dont understand your post:

    If the court has ruled that military conscription / national work is not involuntary servitude, then you are obligated to do these things if lawfully ordered to. Of course, you could refuse your obligation, but then you would face a punishment (which under current practice is very nominal).
    the court has stated in the past ...way back, that the draft was not involuntary servitude. because it is not one citizen serving another citizen.....which is what involuntary servitude is.

    your problem is you believe rights are collective [ democracy], and that society determines what rights are [ which is what France does], and how people will exercise them, this is not the case, the founders are clear rights are individual rights.

    a collective body in your mind has a lien on my rights and choose them for me,...........however.....unalienable, means no lien can be placed on them.

  8. #638
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Canada, Costa Rica
    Last Seen
    05-16-16 @ 09:45 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    31,645

    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    true, but i have provided other material.

    The Declaration of Independence Part of American Law

    Professor John Eidsmoe writes:

    "The role of the Declaration of Independence in American law is often misconstrued. Some believe the Declaration is simply a statement of ideas that has no legal force whatsoever today. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Declaration has been repeatedly cited by the U.S. Supreme Court as part of the fundamental law of the United States of America.

    "The United States Code Annotated includes the Declaration of Independence under the heading 'The Organic Laws of the United States of America' along with the Articles of Confederation, the Constitution, and the Northwest Ordinance. Enabling acts frequently require states to adhere to the principles of the Declaration; in the Enabling Act of June 16, 1906, Congress authorized Oklahoma Territory to take steps to become a state. Section 3 provides that the Oklahoma Constitution 'shall not be repugnant to the Constitution of the United States and the principles of the Declaration of Independence.' (Christianity and the Constitution, pp. 360-361)

    The Declaration of Independence Part of American Law
    Thanks for all that information and have noticed that many of those who signed the Declaration of Independence also signed the Constitution. Obviously there was a great deal of like mindedness going on.

  9. #639
    Mixed Government advocate
    Master PO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    93,000,000 miles from Earth where its very Hot
    Last Seen
    11-30-17 @ 01:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    31,331

    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Thanks for all that information and have noticed that many of those who signed the Declaration of Independence also signed the Constitution. Obviously there was a great deal of like mindedness going on.
    Madison is the brains behind the constitution, he borrowed books from Jefferson, before the Constitutional convention, and read up on governments of the world's past and why the fail.

    then he laid the foundation for our government [using what he learned from the books as to not fail ]months before the constitutional convention, by stating it in letters to Jefferson and Washington...the best one is dated march 19th 1787 between Jefferson and Madison

  10. #640
    Mixed Government advocate
    Master PO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    93,000,000 miles from Earth where its very Hot
    Last Seen
    11-30-17 @ 01:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    31,331

    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I dont understand your post:

    If the court has ruled that military conscription / national work is not involuntary servitude, then you are obligated to do these things if lawfully ordered to.

    Of course, you could refuse your obligation, but then you would face a punishment (which under current practice is very nominal). If one were to forcefully resist a lawful order obligating conscription / national work, the punishment could be more severe.

    At the end of the day, this just shows the government can lawfully obligate unwilling service. Nobody is free from the obligation to refuse this part of the unwritten social contract - ie contribute towards a defense of their society.
    under the constitution of the founders, conscription would be unconstitutional.

    because it violates the founding principles.

    but government has been violating the constitution, and the founding principles long before you and i were ever born.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •