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Thread: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustachio View Post
    Nevertheless, the major difference is that, with discrimination, we're talking about discriminating.
    Yeah, discriminating, otherwise known as making a choice. That's what is at the heart of the issue. People are choosing their associations. You object to people exercising choice. You approve of forcing people into associations that they don't want to be a part of.

    How does burning a flag have anything to do with a person's freedom?
    You haven't followed the free speech issues surrounding flag burning, have you?

    I'm sorry, but you have absolutely no concept of what discrimination does to people.
    What's your remedy for the Star-Trek nerd who can't get a date because women discriminate against him and drive him to misery and loneliness and despair? There's a harm. Should government now force women to date this man? How about forcing women to sleep with him? You don't seem to have a problem with forcing associations onto people and you don't seem to care much for other people's rights to free association, so here I present you with a harm. Fix that harm.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    If you don't like it, don't open a business serving the public or go to some other country that doesn't prohibit discrimination. You have the right to leave and go somewhere else, no one is taking away your free choice or rights.
    You mean like homosexuals who don't like the fact that a state has a law prohibiting them from getting "married" should simply move to some other state?

    You mean like homosexuals should have moved out of the US in the pre-Lawrence era when sodomy laws were still legal?

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    1.)When legislation is passed into law, it doesn't have to be followed or can't be enforced until the court establishes precedent for it first? Does sound right to me.




    2.)By calling an LGBT union a marriage, the traditional definition of marriage is being changed. It is being change from the traditional man / woman procreation definition to same sex non-procreation capable definition.
    3.) Is this not the loss of the traditional definition of marriage?
    4.)It's a false equivalency. The two things are not the same thing.
    5.)Yes, they are similar in that two people commit to each other for a lifetime, well in theory and ideal anyway, but they are not the same thing, given the difference in the ability to procreate.
    6.)While I agree that before the law they should be treated exactly the same, the fact of the matter is that they are not the same thing.
    7.)Civil unions would appear to be one way to allow both to coexist provided that both are treated the same before the law.
    8.)The 'separate but equal' argument doesn't apply
    9.) should both be treated exactly the same.
    1.) not what was said, but what WAS said if theres not the same precedence in existence its not legally equal but its not equal anyway so it doesn't matter
    2.) 100% factually wrong, what ever YOUR subjective meaningless opinion of traditional marriage is, is meaningless and it wont be changed you are free to keep it.
    just like mine is meaningless and im free to keep it.
    3.) no it is factually not, will you be forced to have a marriage that is not with in your traditions? no you will not, so the strawman that traditional marriage will be destroyed is factually false
    4.) you are free to have that subjective opinion but its meaningless
    5.) procreation is factually meaningless to legal marriage
    6.) no thats not a fact that just your subjective opinion
    7.) as it it was already proven it factually wont. ONly granting equal rights will do this and thats whats happening
    8.) yes it applies 100% based on the fallacy you suggest
    9.) correct they should and this is why equal rights is being established and winning
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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Yeah, discriminating, otherwise known as making a choice. That's what is at the heart of the issue. People are choosing their associations. You object to people exercising choice. You approve of forcing people into associations that they don't want to be a part of.

    What's your remedy for the Star-Trek nerd who can't get a date because women discriminate against him and drive him to misery and loneliness and despair? There's a harm. Should government now force women to date this man? How about forcing women to sleep with him? You don't seem to have a problem with forcing associations onto people and you don't seem to care much for other people's rights to free association, so here I present you with a harm. Fix that harm.
    Incredibly hyperbolic. You know that "Star-Trek nerd" is not a protected class. Furthermore, "nerd" is subjective. To continue, all people are free to discriminate against anyone they choose when it comes to who they engage in romantic relationships with. Business owners are subject to laws.

    Restaurants have to pass health inspections, are you opposed to that and when discussing the subject question whether or not those of us in favor of health inspections would have "Star-Trek nerds" forced to pass health inspections (because everybody knows Trekkies never bathe).

    Anybody who opens their own business is fully aware that they will have to face a whole host of laws that they may or may not like. Anti-discrimination laws are among these. If you open a business, be ready to serve the GLBT population, the black population, the Jewish population, the Muslim population, and every other subset of American culture. You're welcome to disagree with this, protest it, fight it, do whatever you please, but at least realize that anti-discrimination laws played a huge role in the civil rights movement and made/make life better for millions of Americans. And whose life is worse because of anti-discrimination laws? Please tell me who and why their life is worse and I'll let you know if I can manage to shed a tear.
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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_Osophy View Post
    Now you're just being irrational. There would still be enforcement for violent crimes such as assault.
    Or, say... oh, I don't know... lynching? Sure, as long as Gene Hackman is still alive for your vision of a regressed America
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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustachio View Post
    Or, say... oh, I don't know... lynching? Sure, as long as Gene Hackman is still alive for your vision of a regressed America
    Lynching is still a crime and a violation of human rights (the right to life).

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustachio View Post
    Business owners are subject to laws.
    Aren't homosexuals also subject to laws when the laws say that there is no such thing as homosexual "marriage?"

    Weren't homosexuals also subject to laws which made sodomy illegal?

    Since when is "it's the law" a good rebuttal in a philosophic debate? Look, I'll grant you if homosexuals had followed your advice and desisted in their agenda to devalue marriage and to overturn sodomy laws, that is, if they obeyed the law without trying to change the law, then your argument would have some merit, but that reality never existed, so it's kind of ludicrous to sputter and exclaim "It's the law!"

    You know that "Star-Trek nerd" is not a protected class.
    Protected class is a political designation in a body of law created by erroneous reasoning on the part of courts. This doesn't give us much insight into issues which arise from natural rights.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_Osophy View Post
    human should be the only protected class. And your rights should be protected. Someone elses property isnt a right

    im not sure what you mean? You cant just "go find them"


    Tell that to george washington.
    I doubt he would have doubted the wisdom of it . After all he spent a lot of energy, treasure and men on turning the citizens' wishes into rights by enforcing them.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I doubt he would have doubted the wisdom of it . After all he spent a lot of energy, treasure and men on turning the citizens' wishes into rights by enforcing them.

    There is the ever so small matter that not all humans could be citizens with 'rights' in 18th Century America.

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    George Washington was offended by Judge's willingness to bargain with his aides, and concluded that her disloyalty and ingratitude in running away should not ever be condoned by giving in to such demands.
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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    People can certainly choose to discriminate but they should understand that there can be consequences for supporting such discrimination.

    Arizona passes bill allowing businesses to deny service to gay customers | fox4kc.com

    In a letter to Brewer on Friday, the Greater Phoenix Economic Council urged the governor to veto Senate Bill 1062, saying the “legislation will likely have profound, negative effects on our business community for years to come.”

    “The legislation places businesses currently in Arizona, as well as those looking to locate here, in potentially damaging risk of litigation, and costly, needless legal disputes,” council President Barry Broome wrote, adding that four unidentified companies have vowed to locate elsewhere if the legislation is signed.

    He added, “With major events approaching in the coming year, including Super Bowl XLIX, Arizona will be the center of the world’s stage. This legislation has the potential of subjecting the Super Bowl, and major events surrounding it, to the threats of boycotts.”
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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