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Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451]

It would appear that you're confusing Holder with the SCOTUS .
Who was talking homosexual marriage? Holder has no problem with trampling state's rights as it is. And if you don't see why states would see the need for preemptive legislation then it is you who is woefully uninformed.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451]

It was the impetus for the Arizona SB1062. It's all there if you bother to do a bit of research and reading. A photographer or wedding cake baker in New Mexico was asked by a same sex couple to provide photography or a cake, I forget which, for a wedding and was shocked and offended. The photographer or wedding cake baker refused because the bible apparently says that gay marriage is a sin. The bible also says gluttony is a sin but somehow there's no record of photographers or wedding cake bakers being offended and shocked by fat people.

While there is no record of this being a problem at all in Arizona the Arizona legislature (no doubt with wads of walking around money and campaign contributions provided by lobbyists) decided they'd better jump on this like ugly on an ape and solve the problem that doesn't exist based on the one incident in New Mexico. The bill wasn't written by normal everyday good and worthy Christians, it was written by a nutcase Christian lobbying group with undisclosed financial sources.

Don't ask for sources. Do your own research.

You did not post anything I did not already know.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451]

You did not post anything I did not already know.

Excellent! Then you DO know why New Mexico has been repeatedly referenced regarding AZ SB1062. You kept asking how the New Mexico incident had anything to do with a loophole in the Arizona law. No official that I am aware of has ever said that. I assumed that you didn't know.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451]

Excellent! Then you DO know why New Mexico has been repeatedly referenced regarding AZ SB1062. You kept asking how the New Mexico incident had anything to do with a loophole in the Arizona law. No official that I am aware of has ever said that. I assumed that you didn't know.

There is no loophole in Arizona law. It does not have an anti discrimination law that names sexual orientation as a protected class like New Mexico does. They are just pretending there is one to push through a law that would allow people to use their religion to discriminate against anyone they do not like.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451]

There is no loophole in Arizona law. It does not have an anti discrimination law that names sexual orientation as a protected class like New Mexico does. They are just pretending there is one to push through a law that would allow people to use their religion to discriminate against anyone they do not like.

Right, we agree.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451]

Aren't there whole separate forums for rewriting the history of liberals, marxists, nationalist and internationalists.
Stop and think about what your argument does to win people over to supporting the anti-gay bill.
I'll repost so you can read a sensible Sen. Hatch discussing both sides of an emotional issue if you like.
State's rights vs. Discrimination .

Have I even took a stand on this Az. bill ? I don't think so.

I started another thread last night that is related to the Az. bill. It was a Pat Buchanan's column. First thing you see with the responses was attacking the messenger instead of the message. Seems to be SOP with way to many on the DP.

I posted the thread without a single word of comment and I'm attacked as if I was siding with Buchana. I never even took a stand on the issue. Frickin unbelievable.

The reason I posted the column was to see if anyone picked up on that when older people are telling younger people about the freedoms they once have but no longer have, history has shown that a country is in trouble and it may already be too late.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Moderator's Warning:
There are way too many personal comments and baiting going on. Get back to the topic or the boot and/or points will be applied.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

No, being against anti-discrimination laws doesn't automatically mean someone supports discrimination.
How is that possible? If the proposed law is specifically to discriminate but you do not support discrimination? At best that is double talk. 'I was against it before I was for it' style.

My argument is based on the rights of the people that operate the business, not the endorsement of discriminatory practices.
One can not have rights at the expense of another.

Supporting something being legal, be that abortion or discrimination by private individuals, does not mean that you support the act itself, but that you are against making it illegal.
More double talk. The difference with abortion is that I really do not care about abortion per see, I just do not want you or the government to have the power to stop it. Now, I know you will say it is the same for you but then you support a law that does exactly that.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451]

It figures that MSNBC would characterize them as "anti-gay" bills to pander toward the uneducated section of the left.
You are right, the proper billing should have reflected what these laws really are bigotry by the ignorant section on the right.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451]

You are right, the proper billing should have reflected what these laws really are bigotry by the ignorant section on the right.

If you want to call the religious right "bigots", that's fine. Just don't call it "anti-gay".
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451]

Aren't there whole separate forums for rewriting the history of liberals, marxists, nationalist and internationalists.
Stop and think about what your argument does to win people over to supporting the anti-gay bill.
I'll repost so you can read a sensible Sen. Hatch discussing both sides of an emotional issue if you like.
State's rights vs. Discrimination .

Now you've done it! Calling Hatch sensible. Not even the right wing thinks that about him. :mrgreen:
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451]

It would appear that you're confusing Holder with the SCOTUS .

Oh no, I'm well aware of the SCOTUS perchant for the federal uber alles. Holder is just one of the worst Atty Gens we've had in my lifetime, and that's saying a bunch because it's been a pretty grim lot.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451]

You are right, the proper billing should have reflected what these laws really are bigotry by the ignorant section on the right.

There is ample evidence of by ignorant sections of the left also, but it doesn't get to the issue of rights, which is what this is. Whose 'rights' trump whose?
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451]

There is ample evidence of by ignorant sections of the left also
I am sure there is, would you like to start a thread on that? Nobody has a monopoly on stupid, but somehow bigotry tends to flow more from the right lately.

but it doesn't get to the issue of rights, which is what this is. Whose 'rights' trump whose?
Nobody's rights trump other's rights, but you can not have or defend anyone's rights while violating the rights of others.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

How is that possible? If the proposed law is specifically to discriminate but you do not support discrimination? At best that is double talk. 'I was against it before I was for it' style.

No, the purpose of the law is to allow people to practice their rights...well...somewhat. Not having laws against private discrimination doesn't endorse or condone the behavior, just doesn't act on it.

One can not have rights at the expense of another.

There is no rights in play here for those being discriminated against. They don't have the right to use someones property, labor or service against someone elses will, nor do they have the right to force anyone to associate with them or make an agreement with them. They have no rights in play here.

More double talk. The difference with abortion is that I really do not care about abortion per see, I just do not want you or the government to have the power to stop it. Now, I know you will say it is the same for you but then you support a law that does exactly that.

What I support is government having no say on these matters.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451]

Nobody's rights trump other's rights, but you can not have or defend anyone's rights while violating the rights of others.

Which goes back to the initial premise - YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO ANOTHER'S PROPERTY.

Refusal to enter into commerce/trade violates NOBODY'S right. Period. End of story.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451]

It figures that MSNBC would characterize them as "anti-gay" bills to pander toward the uneducated section of the left.

Yes of course that would explain why these left wing rags are calling it the same thing.

Thousands try to sway Arizona gov on anti-gay bill
Thousands try to sway Arizona gov on anti-gay bill

Hispanic National Bar Association Nixes Arizona Convention Because Of Anti-Gay Law
Hispanic National Bar Association Nixes Arizona Convention Because Of Anti-Gay Law | Fox News Latino

Oh wait, they aren't left wing.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Let me ask you this: Do you care one way or another if discrimination takes place?

No, the purpose of the law is to allow people to practice their rights...well...somewhat.
And they have every right to sell their whatever, nobody it stopping them.
However, when you open a business to the public you no longer can pick and choose. It is the public or nothing. You want to sell only to a select group, open a membership only private business that is not geared to serve the public.

Not having laws against private discrimination doesn't endorse or condone the behavior, just doesn't act on it.
True, but having laws that specifically allow it does act on it.

There is no rights in play here for those being discriminated against.
What you are saying is that to discriminate is a right or that discrimination can not exist.
Do you or would you like to be the victim of discrimination?

They don't have the right to use someones property, labor or service against someone elses will
Nor do they have the right to discriminate in a place that by intent, their intent, is public.

nor do they have the right to force anyone to associate with them or make an agreement with them.
No one is asking them to.

What I support is government having no say on these matters.
Laws are designed to keep order in society and most of the time prohibit certain actions. In the cases where they are prohibitive in nature they exist because the action they prohibit negatively impacts society. if the action did not exist there would be no need for such laws. We both know that discrimination does exist and that is why laws against it exist. Such laws NEVER compel anyone to do anything in a public setting but prohibit certain actions. If one is averse to such actions one can always avoid facing situations where one can be exposed to them.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451]

Which goes back to the initial premise - YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO ANOTHER'S PROPERTY.
Nobody said otherwise, but we have anti discrimination laws for a reason. YOu want to retain all right to your property do not offer it for sale to the public. The public is just that, you do not get to choose.

Refusal to enter into commerce/trade violates NOBODY'S right. Period. End of story.
True, but not in a business that by design is to serve the public.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Noted law professors send a letter to Gov. Brewer urging her to pass the bill:

SB1062, which amends Arizona’s Religious Freedom Restoration Act, is on your desk for signature. The bill has been egregiously misrepresented by many of its critics. We write because we believe that you should make your decision on the basis of accurate information.

Some of us are Republicans; some of us are Democrats. Some of us are religious; some of us are not. Some of us oppose same-sex marriage; some of us support it. Nine of the eleven signers of this letter believe that you should sign the bill; two are unsure. But all of us believe that many criticisms of the Arizona bill are deeply misleading.

The federal government and eighteen states have Religious Freedom Restoration Acts (RFRAs). Another twelve or thirteen states interpret their state constitutions to provide similar protections. These laws enact a uniform standard to be interpreted and applied to individual cases by courts. They say that before the government can burden a person’s religious exercise, the government has to show a compelling justification.

That standard makes sense. We should not punish people for practicing their religions unless we have a very good reason. Arizona has had a RFRA for nearly fifteen years now; the federal government has had one since 1993; and RFRA’s standard was the constitutional standard for the entire country from 1963 to 1990.

There have been relatively few cases; if you knew little about the Arizona RFRA until the current controversy, that is because it has had no disruptive effect in Arizona. Few people had heard of the federal RFRA before the current litigation over contraception and the Affordable Care Act.

SB1062 would amend the Arizona RFRA to address two ambiguities that have been the subject of litigation under other RFRAs. It would provide that people are covered when state or local government requires them to violate their religion in the conduct of their business, and it would provide that people are covered when sued by a private citizen invoking state or local law to demand that they violate their religion.

But nothing in the amendment would say who wins in either of these cases. The person invoking RFRA would still have to prove that he had a sincere religious belief and that state or local government was imposing a substantial burden on his exercise of that religious belief. And the government, or the person on the other side of the lawsuit, could still show that compliance with the law was necessary to serve a compelling government interest.

As a business gets bigger and more impersonal, courts will become more skeptical about claims of substantial burden on the owner’s exercise of religion. And as a business gets bigger, the government’s claim of compelling interest will become stronger.

Arizona’s RFRA, like all RFRAs, leaves resolution of these issues to the courts for two related reasons. First, it is impossible for legislatures to foresee all the potential conflicts between the diverse religious practices of the many faiths practiced in Arizona and the diverse array of regulations enacted by the state and all its agencies, counties, municipalities, and special purpose districts.

And second, when passions are aroused on all sides, as they have been in this case, it becomes extraordinarily difficult for legislatures to make principled decisions about whether to make exceptions for unpopular religious practices. Courts can generally devote more time to the question, hear the evidence from both sides, and be more insulated from interest-group pressure.

So, to be clear: SB1062 does not say that businesses can discriminate for religious reasons. It says that business people can assert a claim or defense under RFRA, in any kind of case (discrimination cases are not even mentioned, although they would be included), that they have the burden of proving a substantial burden on a sincere religious practice, that the government or the person suing them has the burden of proof on compelling government interest, and that the state courts in Arizona make the final decision. . . .

There have been very few [RFRA] claims by businesses over the years, but there have been a few. It is true that some of these claims are based on objections to same-sex marriage, although that is not an issue in Arizona.

The cases pending in the Supreme Court involve business owners who believe they are being asked to pay for abortions. Business regulations do not often require a business owner to violate a deeply held religious belief, but sometimes they do, and when that happens, the Arizona RFRA should be available. Keep in mind that it will not guarantee either side a win; it will test the government’s claims and the religious believer’s claims under RFRA’s general standard.

Whatever judgment you pass on SB1062, you should not be misled by uninformed critics. The Arizona bill. . .resolves ambiguities that have been the subject of litigation elsewhere. It deserves your accurately informed consideration.​
 
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