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Thread: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    That's your opinion because you never experienced it. I was listening to an interview with a gay veteran. She said her tires were slashed 11 times because she was gay, she was driving in her truck with her child and men screamed slanders at her. You think that's okay. You think we should condone that kind of behavior?
    Was it illegal for liberals to congregate at airports and demonize the soldiers returning from Vietnam?

    You seem to be operating under some notion that you have the right to oppress people in order to make them behave to your standard of decorum. Let me break this news to you as gently as I can - you're wrong.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Followup question: how come it's not "flaunting" when heterosexuals do it?
    There are businesses that frown upon any PDA. So?

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    That's your opinion because you never experienced it. I was listening to an interview with a gay veteran. She said her tires were slashed 11 times because she was gay, she was driving in her truck with her child and men screamed slanders at her. You think that's okay. You think we should condone that kind of behavior?
    She could just have easily been subjected to that if she was in 'nam.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Racial, religious etc. discrimination harms society and vulnerable people. In small towns, isolated and rural areas, just one or two discriminatory businesses could keep a significant portion of the population from getting a job, shopping, getting a place to live etc. without leaving town. Even in a more urban environment, discrimination can force poor people to unnecessary waste time and money searching for a business that will accept their money in exchange for goods or services. Businesses have the ability to oppress people in their daily lives as much or more than government, especially in these days of a handful of mega-corporations, malls and big box retail dominating retail and services. Addressing government discrimination while allowing business discrimination requires tolerating discrimination and the hardship and oppression it will impose on unpopular minorities and society as a whole.

    The business owner who doesn't like serving a customer because of their race, religion, gender etc is harmed much less when forced to serve that person than the would-be customer who has to find another place that will serve him/her is harmed. When a person can't get a job or a home because of race, religion, gender etc discrimination they suffer far more than the employer or landlord will suffer from being forced to treat that person as an equal.

    There is widespread consensus that there is no right to not be offended. That is the only so-called "right" infringed upon when a business is "forced" to serve someone with the wrong skin color or accent. I believe most people would agree that the right to be treated as an equal human being who is judged by his/her behavior, not by an irrational prejudice, is more important than the "right" to not be offended. The "forced to work like a serf" argument is nonsense. No one is required by anti-discrimination laws to provide a good or service that they are not already willingly providing to everyone else (except the person with the "wrong' skin color) who uses that business.

    Anti-discrimination laws secure individual's right to be treated as an equal human being who is judged by his/her behavior, not by an irrational prejudice. They prevent the harm from business discrimination against potential employees, employees and customers, which significantly outweighs the harm from being "forced" to tolerate undesirable races, religions etc in one's business.

    In addition, society as a whole is harmed by the impact of discrimination based on prejudice and hate. Discrimination harms society by maintaining an impoverished underclass living with all the ill effects of poverty and oppression, effects which can impact everyone in the form of blight, large numbers of beggars, disease, crime, violence, rebellion and revenge.

    Past experiences and the experiences of other places show us what happens when discrimination is allowed. Jim Crow laws existed during my lifetime and the negative effects from them still impacts life today. I don't believe that such discrimination will be as rare as claimed. These days it is as likely to be directed at Muslims and gays as blacks, but the tendency to ignorantly, irrationally and/or arbitrarily discriminate has not been sufficiently eliminated yet. For evidence, just look at all the racism and bigotry expressed on this forum and other public fora.
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 02-22-14 at 07:45 PM.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    She could just have easily been subjected to that if she was in 'nam.
    Jesus Gip what's your fricken point?!
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
    "There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men. True nobility lies in being superior to your former self" -Hemingway

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Racial, religious etc. discrimination harms society and vulnerable people. In small towns, isolated and rural areas, just one or two discriminatory businesses could keep a significant portion of the population from getting a job, shopping, getting a place to live etc. without leaving town. Even in a more urban environment, discrimination can force poor people to unnecessary waste time and money searching for a business that will accept their money in exchange for goods or services. Businesses have the ability to oppress people in their daily lives as much or more than government, especially in these days of a handful of mega-corporations, malls and big box retail dominating retail and services. Addressing government discrimination while allowing business discrimination requires tolerating discrimination and the hardship and oppression it will impose on unpopular minorities and society as a whole.

    The business owner who doesn't like serving a customer because of their race, religion, gender etc is harmed much less when forced to serve that person than the would-be customer who has to find another place that will serve him/her is harmed. When a person can't get a job or a home because of race, religion, gender etc discrimination they suffer far more than the employer or landlord will suffer from being forced to treat that person as an equal.

    There is widespread consensus that there is no right to not be offended. That is the only so-called "right" infringed upon when a business is "forced" to serve someone with the wrong skin color or accent. I believe most people would agree that the right to be treated as an equal human being who is judged by his/her behavior, not by an irrational prejudice, is more important than the "right" to not be offended. The "forced to work like a serf" argument is nonsense. No one is required by anti-discrimination laws to provide a good or service that they are not already willingly providing to everyone else (except the person with the "wrong' skin color) who uses that business.

    Anti-discrimination laws secure individual's right to be treated as an equal human being who is judged by his/her behavior, not by an irrational prejudice. They prevent the harm from business discrimination against potential employees, employees and customers, which significantly outweighs the harm from being "forced" to tolerate undesirable races, religions etc in one's business.

    In addition, society as a whole is harmed by the impact of discrimination based on prejudice and hate. Discrimination harms society by maintaining an impoverished underclass living with all the ill effects of poverty and oppression, effects which can impact everyone in the form of blight, large numbers of beggars, disease, crime, violence, rebellion and revenge.

    Past experiences and the experiences of other places show us what happens when discrimination is allowed. Jim Crow laws existed during my lifetime and the negative effects from them still impacts life today. I don't believe that such discrimination will be as rare as claimed. These days it is as likely to be directed at Muslims and gays as blacks, but the tendency to ignorantly, irrationally and/or arbitrarily discriminate has not been sufficiently eliminated yet. For evidence, just look at all the racism and bigotry expressed on this forum and other public fora.
    Precisely and very well said. Thank you.

    We all suffer when we don't protect the vulnerable and we all benefit when we maintain an environment of equality and fairness.
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
    "There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men. True nobility lies in being superior to your former self" -Hemingway

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    Jesus Gip what's your fricken point?!
    That saying that stuff happened because "she was gay" is an assumption.

    You know - kinda like the black guy who interviews and doesn't get the job. You know the first thing he thinks. Always.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Anti-discrimination laws secure individual's right to be treated as an equal human being who is judged by his/her behavior, not by an irrational prejudice.
    No such right exists.

    They prevent the harm from business discrimination against potential employees, employees and customers, which significantly outweighs the harm from being "forced" to tolerate undesirable races, religions etc in one's business.
    Not doing business with someone causes them no harm, it just doesn't prevent it as it could have.

    Furthermore, voluntary arrangements end and there is nothing wrong with that.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    Precisely and very well said. Thank you.

    We all suffer when we don't protect the vulnerable and we all benefit when we maintain an environment of equality and fairness.
    Can you explain how imposing your will on someone to make them do your will is equality? I'll wait..

  10. #380
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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    That saying that stuff happened because "she was gay" is an assumption.

    You know - kinda like the black guy who interviews and doesn't get the job. You know the first thing he thinks. Always.
    No, that's your assumption. The woman stated that it was made clear to her in each instance why she was chosen to have her tires slashed. It's amazing how easily you leap to the assumption that her claims were false.
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
    "There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men. True nobility lies in being superior to your former self" -Hemingway

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