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Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

At some point one person's rights are going to collide with another person's rights. At that we need to defer to common sense, which unfortunately is not all that common. So granting each and every minority group special status is going to create problems. We are ALL, each and every one of us, covered against forced servitude by the 14th Amendment, so say a gay couple wants to have a private business produce a wedding cake, and the cake maker doesn't want to do it because they disagree with gay marriage. The baker has the right to refuse to do it because the gay couple, or anybody else for that matter, lacks the constitutional right to compel them to do it. It's not a religious freedom issue, it's a 14th Amendment issue regardless of the color or beliefs of the baker. And this is where I draw the line on the gay community not wanting to be equal, but "equaler".

Now for the sake of argument let's say the gay couple wants a BLACK baker to make the cake and the baker refuses. The gay couple claims discrimination, the baker claims 14th Amendment protection. What should the judge do?

Everybody has the right to refuse to work with other people for whatever reason barring a previous contractual obligation. Over my 7 years in business I have a short list of people I will not do work for. Not because of race , religion or orientation (although one of them does happen to be gay), but because they are unreasonable assholes. One of them used to be the mayor of our town. He has since died, so I guess we are down to 2. They are both white women. Should I be forced to do business with the lesbian because she is gay but not the other because she does not have minority status? And at what point are MY rights being violated?
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

That's not at all what this bill is about.

The idea was to create a protection for businesses that might get ambushed by 'crusaders'. For example, I have a client who makes custom ceramics. She makes all kinds of stuff with angels and crosses and other symbols generally associated with Christianity. If someone comes into her shop and wants a pentagram and goat head on a platter and she chooses not to make it because she's a Christian and opposed to such imagery she should be allowed to refuse that particular job.

as a gay man your reasoning on the matter makes me not against this. I am smart enough to look elsewhere if someone denies me service, and obviously I wont be asked to leave or not shop at most stores because i'm not wearing a dress and flinging a dildo around so I don't think it will effect anyone who does not press there rainbow flags onto christians

but thats just how I feel on the matter... but i'm biased because I am gay and I disagree with alot of the gay propoganda and overt sexuality in parades movements etc :p
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

as a gay man your reasoning on the matter makes me not against this. I am smart enough to look elsewhere if someone denies me service, and obviously I wont be asked to leave or not shop at most stores because i'm not wearing a dress and flinging a dildo around so I don't think it will effect anyone who does not press there rainbow flags onto christians

but thats just how I feel on the matter... but i'm biased because I am gay and I disagree with alot of the gay propoganda and overt sexuality in parades movements etc :p

That stuff does nothing to advance the gay agenda. I would say it does the opposite.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

That stuff does nothing to advance the gay agenda. I would say it does the opposite.

that is exactly what I was saying, I disagree with it and I think it hurts the gay movement. and if companys that hold christian beliefs and do not want that sort of thing in there store I don't blame it. other the assless chaps cowboy and hairy gay cop, it's hard to tell if someone is gay. and really this law would ONLY hurt those who feel the need to overtly press there sexality on others which I think is wrong :p
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Don't you believe that you have a right to walk onto anyone's property? Don't you believe people are obligated to serve you if they happen to run a business?

nope and nope :shrug:

like i said you are severely confused and must be in the wrong thread
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

I assumed the right not to be discriminated against in a big way (voting, commerce, etc.) is the right being protected.

people do have a right to commerce, however they don't have a right force commerce on another person.

when governments deal with citizens/business....it deals in crime, health and saftey.

when government deals with another government it deals in .......constitutional violations.

therefore if a citizen/ business has not committed a crime, or threaten the health and saftey [something that could cause death or destruction] of the people, government has no authority to act.......because there is no rights violation taking place.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

He's just longing for the days of Bull Connor keeping those black folks out of Woolworths with fire hoses and police dogs. Remember, this is the Rand Paul philosophy.

I dont know about all that but some people simply dont like rights being protected when it protects people they dont like.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

nope and nope :shrug:

like i said you are severely confused and must be in the wrong thread

Then if you don't get someone to serve you when they otherwise don't desire to serve you how do you actually get service from them?

Since getting their service will almost always detail either entering their property or using their property in some way or another, how do you get service without either entering or otherwise using their property in the vast majority of cases?
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

I assumed the right not to be discriminated against in a big way (voting, commerce, etc.) is the right being protected.
you have a right to commerce voluntarily. If the other party doesnt want to do business with you, why should they have to?

nope and nope :shrug:

like i said you are severely confused and must be in the wrong thread

You clearly stated that not serving someone is a violation of their right
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

people do have a right to commerce, however they don't have a right force commerce on another person.
No one is forcing them to run a business, so it's not strictly a matter of forcing commerce on another person.

when governments deal with citizens/business....it deals in crime, health and safety.
This is too lightweight IMO. A crime is a legal term and nearly anything under the sun can (and maybe has) been labeled a crime at one time/place or another. No, being a crime doesn't legitimate or delegitimize a particular government action. As you know well, it's something outside of government and law that is the primary driver for what is right,and what is not. And discrimination is not OK in that context.

You can run a discriminatory club or organization, or private "group", etc. But a general business that serves the public, no, discrimination is not OK.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Both GOP Senators from Arizona want this Bill to go away.
I commend Senators McCain and Flake for being disgusted with this business .
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Do you seriously believe he should be entitled to that mans property and services? That mans labor and business? What place does he have to force that man to allow him on the property and do business with him?
If you just happen to run a business, that means you become everyone's slave? I don't think so. Just because you happen to be in business, that doesn't mean everyone else is entitled to your business.

Couldn't disagree with you more. You want to repeal the 1965 Civil Rights Act. I don't. I think I win. When you open your business to the public, you open your business to the public, not to only those members of the public that fit your particular likes or dislikes regarding race or gender or whatever. What you are advocating is segregation, pure and simple. And it's despicable.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

1.)Then if you don't get someone to serve you when they otherwise don't desire to serve you how do you actually get service from them?
1.) Since using their service will almost always detail either entering their property or using their property in some way or another, how do you get service without either entering or otherwise using their property in the vast majority of cases?

1.) they are not obligated to serve me so i don't understand your question, it makes no sense.
2.) who said id be obtaining service without doing so?

do you have any questions that make sense and actually apply to the discussion?

I was asked two questions and I answered them, the fact remains I don't believe that you have a right to walk onto anyone's property and I don't believe people are obligated to serve you if they happen to run a business.

these fact will never change :)
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

You clearly stated that not serving someone is a violation of their right

LMAO i did NOTHING of the sort and you are severly mistaken like i said or just posted a lie, pick one.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

you have a right to commerce voluntarily. If the other party doesnt want to do business with you, why should they have to?
They don't have to. They can close up shop.

There are a wide range of business laws that govern the way you treat employees, and customers. This is just one of many (presumably).
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

No one is forcing them to run a business, so it's not strictly a matter of forcing commerce on another person.

Yes, no one is forcing them to be in business, but each transaction represents commerce, so if there is some sort of coercion or otherwise threat of government force behind that commerce it is forced commerce on at least some level.

You can run a discriminatory club or organization, or private "group", etc. But a general business that serves the public, no, discrimination is not OK.

Nonsense. All of the examples you listed are private property, and as such, discrimination in terms of entry and use are perfectly fine.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Yes, no one is forcing them to be in business, but each transaction represents commerce, so if there is some sort of coercion or otherwise threat of government force behind that commerce it is forced commerce on at least some level.



Nonsense. All of the examples you listed are private property, and as such, discrimination in terms of entry and use are perfectly fine.

Apparently you haven't read the 1965 Civil Rights Act. Wait until your loon Rand Paul gets elected and repeals the law before you make silly statements like that.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

1.) they are not obligated to serve me so i don't understand your question, it makes no sense.

Can the government come down on them if they don't? What happens when they fail to serve you? Can you sue? Do you use the government to sue someone?

2.) who said id be obtaining service without doing so?

Then you agree with me. Good.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Both GOP Senators from Arizona want this Bill to go away.
I commend Senators McCain and Flake for being disgusted with this business .

Well, neither one of them are Libertarians, so that makes sense. Just wait until the NFL threatens to pull the Super Bowl next year. You'll see a number of these right wing clowns in Arizona come to Jesus.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

They don't have to. They can close up shop.

There are a wide range of business laws that govern the way you treat employees, and customers. This is just one of many (presumably).

So youre saying i can only sell my product to someone if i sell to everyone? Why should you decide who i serve?
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Well, neither one of them are Libertarians, so that makes sense. Just wait until the NFL threatens to pull the Super Bowl next year. You'll see a number of these right wing clowns in Arizona come to Jesus.

Dude, I haven't watched football since I was ten. I really couldn't give a damn about the Super Bowl.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

1.)Can the government come down on them if they don't?
2.) What happens when they fail to serve you?
3.) Can you sue?
4.) Do you use the government to sue someone?
5.) Then you agree with me. Good.

1.) for simply not serving people? nope
2.) nothing
3.) for not serving me? nope
4.) theres no grounds in your description
5.) doubtful your question didnt even make sense or apply and when theres facts involve i go with them something you rarely do

its amazing how obvious, factual and direct statments are confusing some of you
 
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Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

1.) for simply not serving people? nope
2.) nothing
3.) for not serving me? nope
4.) theres no grounds in your description
5.) doubtful your question didnt even make sense or apply and when theres facts involve i go with them something you rarely do

You already know the grounds of the lawsuit. We both know that people can sue if they are denied service and because of this threat who will provide service against their will? Think.

To suggest the government has no rule in this or that somehow the government was given a new power that didn't involve force is idiotic.
 
Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Should I be forced to do business with the lesbian because she is gay but not the other because she does not have minority status? And at what point are MY rights being violated?
At some point one person's rights are going to collide with another person's rights. At that we need to defer to common sense, which unfortunately is not all that common.

And with that in mind, a good division will be to differentiate between services and contracts. Those providing services can still refuse, but only in limited circumstances (ie provided the service in the past, they were disruptive).

Contracts, however, have more personal involvement and thus more leeway: "I dont customize gay wedding cakes", "I dont want to contract on remodeling the abortion center, the strip joint, the church, the bar, the evangelical Christian gay conversion center etc". In contracts, refusal can be for any reason (social or religous) or simply for no stated reason.

Stunning, but par for the course for Libertarians - who don't give a damn about people, just property.
Very true, and another illustration of why libertarian ideaology has never worked in real world. At the end of the day, we dont live on islands and we do have a social contract with each other. Of course, that contract can be pretty limited, but in contrast to libertarianism, it does exist.
 
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