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Thread: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    All your questions remain the baker's business. It is about refusing to bake a cake on religious principles and the baker can decide what those principles are, not anyone else.
    Not if he does this in a way everyone is aware of and can prove. That is the thing about violating laws, if you are going to do it, you need to ensure you do it in a way where you don't get caught. In this case, he openly said he would not sell a cake to any same sex couples because it violates his religious beliefs, yet I'm willing to bet as are others that he does not enforce those same religious beliefs when it comes to selling others wedding cakes, which shows plain bias against same sex couples, and not actual religious convictions in the first place.

    Although it really doesn't matter because he agreed to the antidiscrimination laws all businesses of the state/area are subject to when he started his business. He doesn't get to violate those laws simply because he doesn't like certain people.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Of course there is also this.

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances".
    im glad you posted that since its 100% intact
    if you disagree simply factually prove otherwise
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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Of course there is also this.

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances".
    He is in no way being kept from exercising his religion. He is free to believe that homosexuality is wrong. Refusing to sell someone a cake with certain words on it, while selling cakes with the same words on it to others is discrimination, not excercising your religion.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Of course there is also this.

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances".
    Congress did not make that non discrimination law, that was a state law. The First Amendment protects free speech from being violated by the Federal Government.

    But even still, it is kind of hard to argue that discriminating against gays by denying them cakes and photographs is a part of any religion. It is harder still to argue that this is a core principle of your business when it isn't even mentioned until you deny services.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Congress did not make that non discrimination law, that was a state law. The First Amendment protects free speech from being violated by the Federal Government.

    But even still, it is kind of hard to argue that discriminating against gays by denying them cakes and photographs is a part of any religion. It is harder still to argue that this is a core principle of your business when it isn't even mentioned until you deny services.
    It certainly mentions gays in the Bible and that Homosexuality is a bad thing. The baker believes this, and why not if it is in the Bible? A muslim would feel the same way because of the Koran.

    It seems to me that many are not seeing the big picture here. It is abut human rights and freedoms and how there has to be a balance between them. Few seem to see that this baker has been discriminated against. He may have views with which we might disagree but those are his views, are supported by his Holy Book, and he should be allowed to exercise them.

    I have a Gay son and know what his response would be, but it would not include going to the courts and destroying another person's livelihood.

    The Constitution trumps state law.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    It certainly mentions gays in the Bible and that it iis a bad thing. The baker believes this, and why not iif it is in the Bible? A muslim would feel the same way because of the Koran.

    It seems to me that many are not seeing the big picture here. It is abut human rights and freedoms and how there has to be a balance between them. Few seem to see that this baker has been discriminated against. He may views with which we might disagree but those are his views, are supported by his Holy Book, and he should be allowed to exercise them.

    I have a Gay son and know what his response would be, but it would not include going to the courts and destroying another person's livelihood.
    Here is the problem with arguing that the baker was discriminated against.

    1. The baker chose to obtain a business license in a state that has a non discrimination law that protects sexual orientation.
    2. The baker could have still provided the service by contracting it out or finding an employee who would do it.
    3. The baker's religious rights do not extend beyond the rights of the customer. All of my rights end where they begin to violate the rights of others. The customers, under state law, had the right to be served.
    4. The baker did not make clear, prior to providing services to the general public, that they were comfortable only providing certain services to certain groups.
    5. The baker chose to make a public statement about their views, regardless of how those views would affect their business, and as such they lost customers.

    The baker made choices, of which you seem ready to absolve them of entirely. Where does the personal responsibility of the baker come into play? Do you think that their religious liberty absolves them of all personal responsibility?

    And how is it that the customers are to fault? Did they know the baker would violate the law? Did they know the baker would lose business?

    You can't make the baker into a victim here. It isn't that black and white.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    1. The baker chose to obtain a business license in a state that has a non discrimination law that protects sexual orientation.
    The government can not offer or require the signing away of the peoples rights to take part in certain activities. It is complete and utter nonsense to suggest otherwise.

    2. The baker could have still provided the service by contracting it out or finding an employee who would do it.
    There is no just reason for them to do anything but kick out those they don't desire to serve. Try being a libertarian for once.

    3. The baker's religious rights do not extend beyond the rights of the customer. All of my rights end where they begin to violate the rights of others. The customers, under state law, had the right to be served.
    No one has the right to the service of someone else. It is a violation of the 13th amendment for any laws to exist that makes someone the servant of another.

    4. The baker did not make clear, prior to providing services to the general public, that they were comfortable only providing certain services to certain groups.
    Someone being ignorant doesn't make someone have to serve them, nor does it give them the right to someones else's property.
    Last edited by Henrin; 03-03-14 at 05:12 PM.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Congress did not make that non discrimination law, that was a state law. The First Amendment protects free speech from being violated by the Federal Government.
    The first amendment has applied to states for almost a century now.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    They do get married after divorce though, which violates the religious rules of at least a couple of religions. Catholics consider it constant adultery to get married after getting divorced, basically living in a constant state of sin.
    And I wouldn't have any problem with a baker that refused to bake a cake for the ceremony in that case. In fact, I'm not sure the state would either. Divorcees are not a protected class in any state AFAIK.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    And I wouldn't have any problem with a baker that refused to bake a cake for the ceremony in that case. In fact, I'm not sure the state would either. Divorcees are not a protected class in any state AFAIK.
    I don't know. There is some precedent that divorcees actually do hold some protection under the law. They are not specifically covered like Colorado law does for same sex couples/sexuality. But they are covered to a small extent against being treated differently by actual state laws (not sure how well that would carry over to discrimination laws though).
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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