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Thread: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I frankly don't understand what the issue is. Those businesses chose to obtain a business license in a state where that license would limit their freedom of association due to non discrimination laws that were in effect.
    Non-Discrimination laws that force people to violate their religious beliefs are in contradiction to the Constitution of the United States of America and thus annulled. It doesn't surprise me at all that people assume they would retain their Constitutional Rights simply because they opened a business, though given the heavy anti-business-owner attitude of the left, it does not surprise me that they found themselves to be mistaken.

    The issue is that you do not have the right to force someone to violate their religious precepts. Even if you disagree with them. That's sort of what you call "important".

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Non-Discrimination laws that force people to violate their religious beliefs are in contradiction to the Constitution of the United States of America and thus annulled. It doesn't surprise me at all that people assume they would retain their Constitutional Rights simply because they opened a business, though given the heavy anti-business-owner attitude of the left, it does not surprise me that they found themselves to be mistaken.

    The issue is that you do not have the right to force someone to violate their religious precepts. Even if you disagree with them. That's sort of what you call "important".
    There is no Constitutional right to freedom of association.

    Exactly how does a non discrimination law that requires people to provide services to gays and lesbians lead to violation of their religious beliefs? If you could actually articulate what specific religious belief is violated, that would be helpful.

    I also find it amusing that conservatives call their disobedience to laws, "annulment" based on their particular interpretation of the Constitutionality of laws.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 03-03-14 at 03:45 PM.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Non-Discrimination laws that force people to violate their religious beliefs are in contradiction to the Constitution of the United States of America and thus annulled. It doesn't surprise me at all that people assume they would retain their Constitutional Rights simply because they opened a business, though given the heavy anti-business-owner attitude of the left, it does not surprise me that they found themselves to be mistaken.

    The issue is that you do not have the right to force someone to violate their religious precepts. Even if you disagree with them. That's sort of what you call "important".
    good thing none of that is factually happening
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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    There is no Constitutional right to freedom of association.
    United States Constitution[edit]
    While the United States Constitution's First Amendment identifies the rights to assemble and to petition the government, the text of the First Amendment does not make specific mention of a right to association. Nevertheless, the United States Supreme Court held in NAACP v. Alabama that the freedom of association is an essential part of the Freedom of Speech because, in many cases, people can engage in effective speech only when they join with others.[
    Freedom of association - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]


  6. #1146
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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    then (as pointed out before) that's interesting, but immaterial, unless you wish to argue that deception is a preferred policy.

    Nope, I was responding to this "unless we happen to have a transcript of the conversation itself, we don't know whether or not he volunteered or they asked."

    In one case there is a transcript (email) of the exchange. The couple didn't ask, it was the Photographer that put forward their position without being asked. In the other cases the affidavits submitted by the owner and couple match and the court noted that they agreed. As soon the the baker was informed that the wedding cake was for a lesbian commitment ceremony they ended the ordering process and informed them they wouldn't be serviced and the reason.



    >>>>

  7. #1147
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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Hilarious. You deny a constitution based freedom of association but argue public accomodation laws are based upon the constitution when neither is ennumerated.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    hmmmm im gonna bookmark this for a different discussion

    i find this interesting
    now i agree there is a freedom of association i got no problem with that

    but there are a hand full of dishonest biased posters who use the completely failed and retarded arguments like if its not directly in the constitution its not a right and the other one is marriage is not a right even though SCOTUS said it is 14 times that doesnt count LOL

    now this has nothing to do with the poster i quoted only those that use those failed arguments and then frequently and dishonestly refer to freedom of association even though thats not impacted
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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Hilarious. You deny a constitution based freedom of association but argue public accomodation laws are based upon the constitution when neither is ennumerated.
    States, by the 10th amendment, are granted all the powers not enumerated by the Constitution to the federal government. As such, they can pass non discrimination laws and grant business licenses that are subject to those laws.

    Freedom of association, is considered part of freedom of speech and assembly by court precedent, not its own enumerated right. The problem with your example was a court precedent of an organization (the NAACP) that existed as the official opinion stated "dedicated to the advancement of beliefs and ideas", which made it at an expressive organization, whereas a business that just bakes cakes or takes photographs is not. Had those companies been under the banner of a united organization for the advancement of traditional marriage before they had denied services, then they would undoubtedly had a strong case on the merits of free speech, but they were not, and as such, your example does not really apply.

    They did not care about expressing their views until the moment they denied services to those people, and as such, they were not expressing their free speech. Had they made it clear beforehand that they were a part of an organization or group that would deny services in the interest of advancing traditional marriage, then they would have been expressing free speech.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Does your individual liberty cover evading health codes?
    Health codes?? That's quite a diversion.

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