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Thread: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    His religious beliefs allow him to "support" a wedding for dogs, but not for a gay couple?
    given that the wedding for dogs was a joke, probably, yes. I wouldn't mind (for example) supporting a fun-time event like that, just as I wouldn't mind supporting a wedding that took place in a theatre production, but for me to support a gay wedding would be making an implicit statement of principles on the question of marriage that I do not agree with.

    It is wrong to force people to violate their religious ideals. The freedom of conscience is important enough that it is enshrined in our First Amendment - it is one of our founding ideals. You don't get to strip it away simply because you find other peoples' beliefs bizarre or offensive.

    Pretty sure this is a political conviction and personal bias against gays rather than real religious objections. The religious objection thing is an excuse.
    Sure. And you don't really want equal rights for gays. You just want to punish Christians whom you dislike for the way in which they treated your mother. The "equal rights" thing is just an excuse.


    See how dumb it sounds when you don't even give people credit for believing what they say plainly and clearly that they believe?

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    Everybody has an opinion, that does not make reality.
    well, we are likely going to get a chance to see if I am right or not. If I am wrong, then the movement will not strongly support measures which would force people and institutions to violate their religious faith in order to affirm them... and if I am correct, however, then they will continue to act as people are doing on this thread, and prove fully willing to use state coercion to force others to celebrate me!!!, etc.

    Paranoia and fear of what you hate.
    no hatred here. Or paranoia, for that matter - institutional longevity and self-seeking behavior is pretty much immune to ideology.

    You mean bigotry, because there is no other reason to discriminate.
    that is incorrect. I mean precisely what I say.

    We still care just as much about religious freedom, we are just no longer willing to tolerate bigotry and discrimination which has nothing to do with religious freedom.
    So you still care just as much about religious freedom except that you are no longer willing to allow people to exercise that freedom in ways that you find distasteful, or of which you disapprove. Got it.
    Last edited by cpwill; 03-01-14 at 05:14 PM.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    Do you think that someone should be able to claim faith and then not serve blacks?
    Do you think that someone should be able to claim faith and then not serve interracial couples?
    Do you think that someone should be able to claim faith and then not serve Jews?
    Do you think that someone should be able to claim faith and then not serve interfaith couples?
    Do you think that someone should be able to claim faith and then not serve someone that is divorced?
    Do you think that someone should be able to claim faith for their religion and not serve a customer who is disabled and has a service dog?
    >>>>
    if you are discussing questions of should, then I think people should have the freedom of contract with whomever they choose. If (for example) a Catholic does not wish to support the wedding of a multiple-divorcee millionaire marrying his latest 24 year old trophy wife I think he has the right to do so.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    if you are discussing questions of should, then I think people should have the freedom of contract with whomever they choose. If (for example) a Catholic does not wish to support the wedding of a multiple-divorcee millionaire marrying his latest 24 year old trophy wife I think he has the right to do so.
    Great way to maintain a civil society - NOT!
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Great way to maintain a civil society - NOT!
    Actually that is the exact way to maintain a civil society. It is the overly-litigious response that turns every issue into one of law and invades all aspects of the public sphere with the State that destroys civil society.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    but for me to support a gay wedding would be making an implicit statement of principles on the question of marriage that I do not agree with.
    How is that even possible?

    It is wrong to force people to violate their religious ideals.
    Except that is not the case here.

    And you don't really want equal rights for gays.
    Yes, that is why people oppose discrimination, because they do not want equal rights.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    So you still care just as much about religious freedom except that you are no longer willing to allow people to exercise that freedom in ways that you find distasteful, or of which you disapprove. Got it.
    No you do not get it. I am against allowing the use of the vail of religious freedom as a tool of discrimination. First and foremost it is a lie as such acts have NOTHING to do with one's personal faith. Second, they denigrate the meaning of Christianity, both by perpetuation such a lie and by acting the exact opposite of how Christ did who came into this world for the sinners and openly welcomed them to His table.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    if you are discussing questions of should, then I think people should have the freedom of contract with whomever they choose. If (for example) a Catholic does not wish to support the wedding of a multiple-divorcee millionaire marrying his latest 24 year old trophy wife I think he has the right to do so.

    Thank you for the honesty, and in a way we are kindred spirits then because I also support the repeal of Public Accommodation laws as applied to private businesses (but they should be maintained for the dealings of government entities).

    My fundamental disagreement with the bill is it creates a group that gains "special rights" (you know those thing many claim "the gheys" are asking for) which exempt them from the law and grant them special privileges to discriminate by hiding behind the curtain of religion.

    Most claim to be for smaller more limited government, for freedom and liberty - but when asked those pointed questions the answer is commonly (and I paraphrase) - "Oh no, those laws are OK. It is a good thing for the government to prevent discrimination against them." Big government hypocrites. They don't mind big government dictating the lives of individuals as long as it's not their ox being gored.

    Your honestly is a breath of fresh air.



    >>>>

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    How is that even possible?
    I am a Christian.

    Except that is not the case here.
    In fact it is. One of the points about religious freedom is that you do not get to decide what others' faiths will be or include.

    Yes, that is why people oppose discrimination, because they do not want equal rights.
    perhaps - it could only make a nice slogan.

    The point being that just as you think that is is stupid for someone not to take you at face value when you state what you believe and what you are pursuing, it is stupid of you to refuse to do the same for others.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    Thank you for the honesty, and in a way we are kindred spirits then because I also support the repeal of Public Accommodation laws as applied to private businesses (but they should be maintained for the dealings of government entities).

    My fundamental disagreement with the bill is it creates a group that gains "special rights" (you know those thing many claim "the gheys" are asking for) which exempt them from the law and grant them special privileges to discriminate by hiding behind the curtain of religion.

    Most claim to be for smaller more limited government, for freedom and liberty - but when asked those pointed questions the answer is commonly (and I paraphrase) - "Oh no, those laws are OK. It is a good thing for the government to prevent discrimination against them." Big government hypocrites. They don't mind big government dictating the lives of individuals as long as it's not their ox being gored.

    Your honestly is a breath of fresh air.



    >>>>
    It's worth noting that under this system I fully expect for there to be plenty of those who would discriminate against me, and am in favor of us all agreeing to forgo the use of government to punish or coerce them when they do so.

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