Ukraine in Flames

StringBean said:

If you think Putin or the EU have the Ukrainians' interests at heart, you belie your name.

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Proud South Korean said:

He's obviously not arguing that Putin or the EU have the Ukrainians' interests at heart, he's pointing out the obvious fact that between the EU and Russia, Ukraina hardly has no choice or alternative. It can ignore both at its own expense.

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What he said. Ukraine can't ignore both the EU and Russia, not unless it wants to have no energy and watch its economic grind to a halt without with mass death as the winter rolls around next year.

By the end of next week the EU will most likely put sanctions on Ukrainian politicians. This is different than what the US did when it put sanctions on Ukraine... those sanctions do nothing to deter the politicians, it just hurts the economy that average people depend on.
The sanctions the EU will put will be targetted only on those politicians who the EU deems responsible for the protests and for usurping the democratic process.
The 2 most prominent of these sanctions are:
1. travel bans. The EU will not permit anyone who gets these bans (yanukovych and friends most likely) to enter EU territory. This may seem... like nothing... but it will make it so that politicians can't escape justice in Ukraine (if democracy wins there) by going to an EU country... though most may flee to Russia really...

2. Freezing all international assets. If they can pull this off... it'll be great. This will really punish the corrupt politicians.

This is a really powerful picture.
Picked off reddit.

Ukraine in Flames

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This is exactly why the public should have the right to bear arms. It would look a lot different out there if the government had a million rifles pointed at them all over the country.

EUobserver / EU and US co-ordinating Ukraine sanctions list

EU and US co-ordinating Ukraine sanctions list

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US and EU officials are working together to decide which Ukrainian officials to blacklist when EU foreign ministers meet on Thursday (20 December).

Ben Rhodes, a US national security advisor, told press on Wednesday: “We are in consultation with the European Union on the questions like which individuals should be held responsible for the violence, and in consideration of issues like imposing sanctions related to the ongoing violence.”

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Also.

BBC News - Ukraine President Yanukovych sacks army chief amid crisis

Ukraine President Yanukovych sacks army chief amid crisis

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Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych has sacked the head of the armed forces, Col Gen Volodymyr Zamana, according to the president's website.

The move comes after the most intense violence in Ukraine's three-month crisis turned Kiev into a battle zone.

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At least 26 people died, mainly in Kiev, as protesters wielding petrol bombs and paving stones tried to defend their encampment in the central Independence Square from police using rubber bullets and stun grenades.

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Rainman05 said:

This is a really powerful picture.
Picked off reddit.

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Composite shot right?

Ben K. said:

Composite shot right?

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Idk, your guess is as good as mine. But still very powerful. And artistic.

Rainman05 said:

EUobserver / EU and US co-ordinating Ukraine sanctions list




Also.

BBC News - Ukraine President Yanukovych sacks army chief amid crisis

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Since US Ambassador Nuland admits that the US spent $5 billion in the Ukraine and that money would have organized protest groups, NGOs, etc., does that mean the USA is fomenting terrorism and will be sanctioned. Yanukovych may be a scumbag, but he is a politician, so I repeat myself (forgive me Mark Twain), but he is the only person I have seen offer compromise in this matter. I think banking and the potential to acquire Ukrainian assets through default, bankruptcies, and political skullduggery are behind this uprising. I offer the following link to support the overlap of banking to supply chains and potential implications.

Predator Banks Enter Brave New World of Epic Scams and Public Hasn't Got a Clue

"“Today, banks like Morgan Stanley, JPMorgan Chase and Goldman Sachs own oil tankers, run airports and control huge quantities of coal, natural gas, heating oil, electric power and precious metals. They likewise can now be found exerting direct control over the supply of a whole galaxy of raw materials crucial to world industry and to society in general, including everything from food products to metals like zinc, copper, tin, nickel and, most infamously thanks to a recent high-profile scandal, aluminum.”"

Proud South Korean said:

I'm sure Gandhi and MLK showed that. Of course it is often the easier and preferred method, but history still shows that violence isn't always the answer.

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a very good point.
But this isn't Tahrir/Tiananmen square (Egypt/China) either, It's a violent protest, but it does have a lot of popular support -how much I do not know, not knowing Ukraine politics.

Rainman05 said:

By the end of next week the EU will most likely put sanctions on Ukrainian politicians. This is different than what the US did when it put sanctions on Ukraine... those sanctions do nothing to deter the politicians, it just hurts the economy that average people depend on.
The sanctions the EU will put will be targetted only on those politicians who the EU deems responsible for the protests and for usurping the democratic process.
The 2 most prominent of these sanctions are:
1. travel bans. The EU will not permit anyone who gets these bans (yanukovych and friends most likely) to enter EU territory. This may seem... like nothing... but it will make it so that politicians can't escape justice in Ukraine (if democracy wins there) by going to an EU country... though most may flee to Russia really...

2. Freezing all international assets. If they can pull this off... it'll be great. This will really punish the corrupt politicians.

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Yep RM.....I heard France was leading the way again. Had the Poles and Germany in this morning. Also now am hearing another 10 dead.

So the EU will impose personal Sanctions on the Ukrainian Leaders in Government.....yet none that are appearing as this Opposition?

WHOOPS.....There it is, the Obama Warning comes after the EU has spoken out. Coming thru with the Atlantic Wire. Warning the Ukrainian Government!



Obama Condemns Kiev Violence in a Warning to Ukraine's Government.....



While traveling in Mexico on Wednesday, President Obama addressed the ongoing violence in Ukraine on Wednesday with a strong statement aimed primarily at the Ukrainian government. "The US condemns in strongest terms the violence" in the country, said Obama, according to the White House's pool report, adding, "We hold the Ukrainian government primarily responsible for making sure that it is dealing with peaceful protestors in an appropriate way."

In his statement to reporters, Obama added that the White House was "going to be watching very carefully," and expected the Ukrainian government to "show restraint" in the future. He added that he expected the "peaceful protesters to remain peaceful," and that "there will be consequences if people step over the line... that includes making sure that the Ukrainian military does not step into [a set of issues that should be settled by civilians]." Obama also indicated that the US was "deeply engaged" with European allies over the crisis. Here's the full statement from the pool:.....snip~

Obama Condemns Kiev Violence in a Warning to Ukraine's Government
The Atlantic Wire

Rainman05 said:

This is a really powerful picture.
Picked off reddit.

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What a picture RM......talk about some scorched earth, huh? Unreal and all this over taking the trade deal with the Russians over the EU. Damn!

MMC said:

Yep RM.....I heard France was leading the way again. Had the Poles and Germany in this morning. Also now am hearing another 10 dead.

So the EU will impose personal Sanctions on the Ukrainian Leaders in Government.....yet none that are appearing as this Opposition?

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That is a legitimate question. I don't know who they will target. Maybe some leaders of the opposition too. certainly ,all the top brass of the governing party will be sanctioned, that's almost a certainty.

the problem is that you need to be careful whom in the opposition you sanction. I did say before, and so did the protesters... just because the opposition party is called the opposition party doesn't mean that they're on the side of the people. If the tables were turned, and the now opposition would be the guys in power, no doubt that they'll also be corrupt and try and hold onto power with both hands and teeth.

This is the problem with party politics... the game is rigged in favor of the politicians. If the current govt gets toppled, the best thing for Ukraine is to NOT have any of the current crop of politicians involved in politics. None. Because most are corrupt... opposition and ruling party. Ofc, this would be an ideal scenario and while hard, not impossible. for instance, Poland successfully managed to get rid of most communists after 89 and the political class was "fresh". Compare this to... say... Bulgaria whom even today, the political class and especially the ruling party stinks of communism... or in Romania where while we did get rid of communism in 89, the stench remained until 2003/2004... and now, slowly but surely, it's starting to stink again as the spiritual successors of the communists are partially in power. Complicated.

I do however feel that no matter the pressure from outside, it will nto be the determining factor in the outcome of this Ukrainian crisis.

MMC said:

What a picture RM......talk about some scorched earth, huh? Unreal and all this over taking the trade deal with the Russians over the EU. Damn!

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Trading with the EU is not just about the EU. It's also about opening the door to the free world. Ukrainians don't want to continue to be like Belarus... hell, Belarussians don't want to be Belarus but they're still 10 years behind Ukraine. Maybe once their dinosaur of a communist president dies they'll have a chance to restore democracy.

Ukrainian police snipers and policemen armed with AK's shoot unarmed crowd with live ammunition. Over 30 people dead so far, and counting.
FYI: This has just happened, literally, 2h ago.

http://www.radiosvoboda.org/media/video/25270710.html

EDIT: This is also from 2h ago. People are actually getting shot in this video, watch at your own discretion.
This is not an easy video to watch!

274ina said:

looks good, I love the fascist going down hard at the end. We need protesters with balls like that in OWS for real CHANGE in USA.

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Here you got Obama drawing more lines in the sand if the Ukraine gov't uses violence to quell the protests.

I wonder. If the OWS or even some other whacko Tea Party type revolution took place in Washington, shutting down the city, burning it down, would the US government use the same tactics to quell that revolution/protest?

I think the government would turn American guns on American protesters/revolutionaries, such as is taking place now in the Ukraine, in a heartbeat.

Obama needs to shut his pie-hole. It could very well be him giving the orders to fire on the crowd if the shoe was on the other foot.

MMC said:

WHOOPS.....There it is, the Obama Warning comes after the EU has spoken out. Coming thru with the Atlantic Wire. Warning the Ukrainian Government!


Obama Condemns Kiev Violence in a Warning to Ukraine's Government
The Atlantic Wire

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Besides statements, this actually happened as a response to the videos I just posted. Over 30 were killed by the police 2h ago in Kyiv.
EU prepares to hit Ukraine with sanctions, arms embargo | Reuters

EU prepares to hit Ukraine with sanctions, arms embargo

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The European Union was preparing on Thursday to impose sanctions on those responsible for deadly violence in Ukraine as well as to impose an arms embargo on the country, according to a draft ministerial statement obtained by Reuters.

However, EU officials cautioned that the text was subject to revisions and that the final decision will be taken by EU foreign ministers who will hold an emergency meeting in Brussels later on Thursday.

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"At the same time, member states have decided to implement an arms embargo and a ban on equipment used for internal repression," it said.

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EU diplomats have said sanctions could potentially be imposed on protest leaders who called for violence, as well as on government and security officials, but that Yanukovich himself is unlikely to be targeted for now. It is expected to take some days to draw up a detailed list of names.

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The United States on Wednesday imposed visa bans on 20 senior Ukrainian government officials believed to be responsible for the violence against protesters.

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So I'm guessing by the end of the week, all EU nations (+ Prolly the US too) will put a weapons embargo on Ukraine... this won't do much.. since Ukraine has a lot of weapons already. The hard part is, how will this be enforced. As long as Russia can supply Ukraine with weapons, the embargo's efficiency will be limited.

Rainman05 said:

Ukrainian police snipers and policemen armed with AK's shoot unarmed crowd with live ammunition. Over 30 people dead so far, and counting.
FYI: This has just happened, literally, 2h ago.

http://www.radiosvoboda.org/media/video/25270710.html

EDIT: This is also from 2h ago. People are actually getting shot in this video, watch at your own discretion.
This is not an easy video to watch!

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Holy ****.....I have been watchin that. Their just shooting them. WTF.

MMC said:

Yep RM.....I heard France was leading the way again. Had the Poles and Germany in this morning. Also now am hearing another 10 dead.

So the EU will impose personal Sanctions on the Ukrainian Leaders in Government.....yet none that are appearing as this Opposition?

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Here is an interesting link even if it is from Pravda. Looks like the ones shot are police and shot by opposition sniper/s. I don't think you will get this news from Mass Media Stenographers and Presstitutes in the USA. They can't even acknowledge that it is another CIA/NGO misadventure gone awry, or exactly as planned. The truth is where you find it, like gold.

Kiev sniper shoots 20 law enforcers - English pravda.ru

"The sniper who took up position on the roof of the conservatory in Kiev injured as many as 20 law enforcement officers. Euro-Maidan activists seized the building of the conservatory on February 20.

Previously, the Interior Ministry reported that there were four people wounded. Tonight, opposition leaders announced a truce with President Yanukovych. However, nationalist movement Common Cause said that they were going to boycott the agreement, calling it a "fake."

Meanwhile, the number of victims of violence on Independence Square (Maidan Nezalezhnosti) has reached 28 people. Media reports that the confrontation resumed almost anew. Opposition activists managed to drive "Berkut" fighters to "Arsenalnaya" metro station.

Deputies of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine are being evacuated."

Well, yesterday Obama banned 20 Ukrainian officials from coming to the US. What is he doing with that move?

State Department bans 20 Ukrainians 'in chain of command' from U.S.



The State Department on Wednesday banned 20 Ukrainian civilians from obtaining U.S. visas in an effort to ramp up pressure on the Eastern European country's government to de-escalate the bloody confrontations between police and opposition protesters.

A senior State Department official would not name those banned from traveling to the U.S., but said the list included the “full chain of command” of those considered responsible for recent deadly clashes.

The move was a careful first step as U.S. and European Union officials warned that more punitive sanctions could be forthcoming if a truce announced late Wednesday did not hold.


State Department bans 20 Ukrainians 'in chain of command' from U.S. - latimes.com

Check that.....Obama now Threatens Consequences. The MS Media also has Articles up that Obama is outraged over the photos and the attacks on the protestors.


Obama Threatens 'Consequences' for Violence in Ukraine

President Obama today condemned the violence occurring in Ukraine and warned there would be "consequences" if the brutality continues.

"The United States condemns in the strongest terms the violence that's taking place. And we have been deeply engaged with our European partners as well as the Ukrainian government and the opposition to try to ensure that that violence ends," the president said shortly after he arrived here for the North American Leaders Summit.

Obama Threatens 'Consequences' for Violence in Ukraine


Then Hagel says the Ukrainian government must answer for the violence.


UK's Hague says Ukrainian government must answer for violence....

British Foreign Secretary William Hague said on Wednesday the Ukrainian government must be held accountable for violence security forces had used during protests which killed at least 26 people.

European Union foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton has called an emergency meeting of EU foreign ministers to discuss the deteriorating situation in Ukraine in Brussels on Thursday, at which sanctions are expected to be discussed.

"Violence against peaceful protesters is unacceptable and the Ukrainian government should be held accountable," Hague said on Twitter. He said he would attend the Thursday meeting.....snip~

UK's Hague says Ukrainian government must answer for violence

Those protestors had better be careful, or Obama will send the IRS after them.

Risky Thicket said:

It's been difficult for many of the old countries of the USSR. The Ukraine has had a difficult time. I have met and talked with people from the Ukraine. They want freedom and financial independence but it is a rather complex mess. I wish them well.

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To wish them well you have to wish Putin ill. Do you, or do you support him?

Erod said:

Those protestors had better be careful, or Obama will send the IRS after them.

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Only after the NSA spies on them.

Erod said:

Those protestors had better be careful, or Obama will send the IRS after them.

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26 dead yesterday and 21 dead today.....he best check with that other Debt Colletor first. .....