Ukraine in Flames

DVSentinel said:

Blood is the only coin that can purchase freedom and liberty.

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I'm sure Gandhi and MLK showed that. Of course it is often the easier and preferred method, but history still shows that violence isn't always the answer.

That noise you hear from Russia is the sound of tank engines being warmed up. It has been heard previously in East Germany, Hungary, and Czechoslovakia. Be afraid, Ukrainians. Be Very Afraid.

274ina said:

"freedom and libery" means slavery to the trans national corporations and the unelected CEO.

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No, that would be corporatism. I'm against that also.

Proud South Korean said:

I'm sure Gandhi and MLK showed that. Of course it is often the easier and preferred method, but history still shows that violence isn't always the answer.

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Peaceful protest like that only prosper if your enemy actually gives a damn about human rights. BTW, MLK had his brains blown out, yeah, that worked out great for him, didn't it?

DVSentinel said:

Peaceful protest like that only prosper if your enemy actually gives a damn about human rights. BTW, MLK had his brains blown out, yeah, that worked out great for him, didn't it?

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It worked in the end. Lincoln also got his brains blown out, but his goal was accomplished. You're confusing personal life with a social achievement. By that logic martyrs would have also failed at the end, no?

Proud South Korean said:

I'm sure Gandhi and MLK showed that. Of course it is often the easier and preferred method, but history still shows that violence isn't always the answer.

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You might also want to note that the protesters have tried that since November. Working out great for them, isn't it?

DVSentinel said:

You might also want to note that the protesters have tried that since November. Working out great for them, isn't it?

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I'm not saying that it works all the time or that it will work in Ukraine. I just showed that your post using absolutes is just nonsense. Non-violent student activism worked in South Korea to bring about democracy also.

Proud South Korean said:

It worked in the end. Lincoln also got his brains blown out, but his goal was accomplished. You're confusing personal life with a social achievement. By that logic martyrs would have also failed at the end, no?

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You might want to do a bit more research. There was lots of violence in the civil rights movement. MLK personally wanted nonviolence, but a lot happened before it came to fruition. Also, his assassination was "his personal life", it was very much the result of what he was doing.

Lincoln fought a war, hardly the epitome of non-violence.

Gandhi was also assassinated, also for political motivations, and lots of violence occurred in India before they could become Independent.

Were their goals eventually achieved, in part (civil rights is still an issue in the US) and neither of their goals were eventually achieved through non-violence.

DVSentinel said:

You might want to do a bit more research. There was lots of violence in the civil rights movement. MLK personally wanted nonviolence, but a lot happened before it came to fruition. Also, his assassination was "his personal life", it was very much the result of what he was doing.

Lincoln fought a war, hardly the epitome of non-violence.

Gandhi was also assassinated, also for political motivations, and lots of violence occurred in India before they could become Independent.

Were their goals eventually achieved, in part (civil rights is still an issue in the US) and neither of their goals were eventually achieved through non-violence.

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It takes far more disciplined, effort, and courage, to lead a non violent protest movement trying to create change
In the world.

Defiant Ukrainian protesters seized control of the capital's central post office Wednesday and stood their ground against riot police on the city's main square, a day after clashes that left at least 25 people dead and raised fears of prolonged violence.


Anti-government protesters protected themselves with shields during clashes with riot police in Kiev's Independence Square, the epicenter of the country's current unrest, Kiev, Ukraine, Wednesday, Feb. 19, 2014. The deadly clashes in Ukraine’s capital have drawn sharp reactions from Washington, generated talk of possible European Union sanctions and led to a Kremlin statement blaming Europe and the West

The violence that also left hundreds injured was the worst in nearly three months of anti-government protests that have paralyzed Kiev, Ukraine's capital. The opposition and President Viktor Yanukovych's government are locked in a stalemate over the identity of their nation of 46 million, which is divided in its loyalties between Russia and the West.

In an ominous development, Ukraine's top security agency accused protesters Wednesday of seizing hundreds of firearms from its offices and announced a nationwide anti-terrorist operation to restore order. The Defense Ministry said the army could take part in the operation.....snip~

http://news.yahoo.com/protesters-seize-kiev-post-office-stand-ground-164113838.html

MMC said:

Defiant Ukrainian protesters seized control of the capital's central post office Wednesday and stood their ground against riot police on the city's main square, a day after clashes that left at least 25 people dead and raised fears of prolonged violence.

Anti-government protesters protected themselves with shields during clashes with riot police in Kiev's Independence Square, the epicenter of the country's current unrest, Kiev, Ukraine, Wednesday, Feb. 19, 2014. The deadly clashes in Ukraine’s capital have drawn sharp reactions from Washington, generated talk of possible European Union sanctions and led to a Kremlin statement blaming Europe and the West

The violence that also left hundreds injured was the worst in nearly three months of anti-government protests that have paralyzed Kiev, Ukraine's capital. The opposition and President Viktor Yanukovych's government are locked in a stalemate over the identity of their nation of 46 million, which is divided in its loyalties between Russia and the West.

In an ominous development, Ukraine's top security agency accused protesters Wednesday of seizing hundreds of firearms from its offices and announced a nationwide anti-terrorist operation to restore order. The Defense Ministry said the army could take part in the operation.....snip~

http://news.yahoo.com/protesters-seize-kiev-post-office-stand-ground-164113838.html

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Know any good Ukrainian mail-order bride sights? Bet there are lots of hot women wanting to get out of there at the moment.

DVSentinel said:

Know any good Ukrainian mail-order bride sights? Bet there are lots of hot women wanting to get out of there at the moment.

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Nah.....besides I thought there was Brightons Beach here in the US. :mrgreen:

Unitedwestand13 said:

It takes far more disciplined, effort, and courage, to lead a non violent protest movement trying to create change
In the world.

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Not to mention one asshat can ruin everything, a protester with a knack for violence or a nervious cop shooting into a crowd. it's really difficult to keep thousands of people on the same page of none violence. in my opinion violence begets violence in these sort of things

MMC said:

Nah.....besides I thought there was Brightons Beach here in the US. :mrgreen:

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Don't really know where that's at, but really, you need to get the "fresh from the farm" before they get tainted with some of the stupidity that goes on over here.

Unitedwestand13 said:

It takes far more disciplined, effort, and courage, to lead a non violent protest movement trying to create change
In the world.

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It also leaves socialist types alive to cause trouble in the future.

I must be a little slow on the uptake, as I don't view this as a protest for democracy. Yanukovich is elected democratically in the Ukraine. He wants to strike a business deal with Russia and favorable to the Ukraine because 2/3rds of the Ukraine speaks Russian and it has been historically attached to Russia. There are a bunch of EURO wannabes in the NW Ukraine who, with the help of $5 billion from the USA want to appoint their own leadership undemocratically through violence. Should they deal with Russia or fiat currency Reserve Bankers. Here in the USA, we recently gave the bankers trillions of dollars to help us out of a recession/depression and now the banks have lots of money but we don't. Ukraine sounds like "fresh meat for banker," if you ask me, and I admit that I have not one good word for Wall Street and Federal Reserve bankers. We stirred up Iraq and who benefitted? We stirred up Syria and who benefitted? We stirred up Libya and who benefitted? We stirred up Haiti and who benefitted? Is there a common message here? Ponder the issues, don't be misled by a stage managed media. Russia offers Ukraine a $15 billion bailout and discount natural gas and the EURO offers what?

Freedom.

This explains the rudiments.

BBC News - Ukraine crisis explained - in 60 seconds

Manc Skipper said:

Freedom.

This explains the rudiments.

BBC News - Ukraine crisis explained - in 60 seconds

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Are some really holding it against Ukrainians for not wanting to be associated with Russia? I mean the shadow of Russia alone makes my skin crawl. Not to mention recent events. First the initial refusal of homosexuals, then their public beating of the band "***** riot" only shows they aren't heading in the right direction.

Video: ***** Riot attacked with whips by police at Sochi - Telegraph

Proud South Korean said:

I'm not saying that it works all the time or that it will work in Ukraine. I just showed that your post using absolutes is just nonsense. Non-violent student activism worked in South Korea to bring about democracy also.

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Well, I didn't say democracy, I said freedom and liberty. Also, you have a fairly large standing army. A viscous enemy to your north. Many, many people died to keep S. Korea independent and many stand ready to do so today to ensure it.

Nor do you truly have freedom and liberty. No country does at the moment. There are many, many things restricted in your country. You have socialist entities and organizations within your government. As long as a single socialist part to your government exist or a single socialist lives in your country, you will never be truly free. Freedom and socialism are incompatible with each other. The mix as well as matter and anti-matter.

DVSentinel said:

Well, I didn't say democracy, I said freedom and liberty. Also, you have a fairly large standing army. A viscous enemy to your north. Many, many people died to keep S. Korea independent and many stand ready to do so today to ensure it.

Nor do you truly have freedom and liberty. No country does at the moment. There are many, many things restricted in your country. You have socialist entities and organizations within your government. As long as a single socialist part to your government exist or a single socialist lives in your country, you will never be truly free. Freedom and socialism are incompatible with each other. The mix as well as matter and anti-matter.

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You may take your rant about socialism elsewhere.
You also didn't get the comment about democracy. No, SK was ruled by a succession of almost fascist dictators well until the late 1980s. I wasn't referring to our less fortunate brethren in the North.

Proud South Korean said:

You may take your rant about socialism elsewhere.
You also didn't get the comment about democracy. No, SK was ruled by a succession of almost fascist dictators well until the late 1980s. I wasn't referring to our less fortunate brethren in the North.

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I got your comment. I am not a advocate of unrestricted democracy. Our country is in deep debt and our economy is near a shambles because of the affects people voting themselves entitlements due to unrestricted representative democracy.

And I will put my rants about socialism any damned place I please if it is appropriate to the thread.

DVSentinel said:

I got your comment. I am not a advocate of unrestricted democracy. Our country is in deep debt and our economy is near a shambles because of the affects people voting themselves entitlements due to unrestricted representative democracy.

And I will put my rants about socialism any damned place I please if it is appropriate to the thread.

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Do as you please :shrug:

Wiseone said:

Wow really flexing your knowledge on this subject aren't you now?

No they can't "just be a soverign country" as in ignore all their neighbors, and even if they could the current President doesn't want to do that and most of the protesters don't either.

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If you think Putin or the EU have the Ukrainians' interests at heart, you belie your name.

StringBean said:

If you think Putin or the EU have the Ukrainians' interests at heart, you belie your name.

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He's obviously not arguing that Putin or the EU have the Ukrainians' interests at heart, he's pointing out the obvious fact that between the EU and Russia, Ukraina hardly has no choice or alternative. It can ignore both at its own expense.

DaveFagan said:

I must be a little slow on the uptake, as I don't view this as a protest for democracy. Yanukovich is elected democratically in the Ukraine. He wants to strike a business deal with Russia and favorable to the Ukraine because 2/3rds of the Ukraine speaks Russian and it has been historically attached to Russia. There are a bunch of EURO wannabes in the NW Ukraine who, with the help of $5 billion from the USA want to appoint their own leadership undemocratically through violence. Should they deal with Russia or fiat currency Reserve Bankers. Here in the USA, we recently gave the bankers trillions of dollars to help us out of a recession/depression and now the banks have lots of money but we don't. Ukraine sounds like "fresh meat for banker," if you ask me, and I admit that I have not one good word for Wall Street and Federal Reserve bankers. We stirred up Iraq and who benefitted? We stirred up Syria and who benefitted? We stirred up Libya and who benefitted? We stirred up Haiti and who benefitted? Is there a common message here? Ponder the issues, don't be misled by a stage managed media. Russia offers Ukraine a $15 billion bailout and discount natural gas and the EURO offers what?

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You are projecting so hard it would be a shame if you missed your career as a powerpoint presenter.

First off, yanukovich got elected with less than 50%. I think it was like 47% if I remember correctly, may have been 48. I know Timoshenko got like 45%. But still, not 50% + 1. Also, corruption allegations were widespread and people had no confidence that the vote would be fair.
Nvm, found the wiki page so we can discuss on this basis.
Ukrainian presidential election, 2010 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Even before the election ,over 80% of the country believed that there will be election rigging and only 5% believed that the elections would be fair and balanced.

If you consider this to be "democracy" then fine... I don't.

Russia offers Ukraine a 15bil loan to chain it to it. Most of that money will be entering the pockets of the politicians, nothing of value will go to helping the country or the people. Yanukovich is a multi-millionaire, he has about 100mil $ in houses alone.
the EU can offer regional development funds. These funds cannot be pocketed by politicians or corrupt officials to the same level that, say, discretionary spending or contract funds are being pocketed by politicians and the political clientele. It can offer stability and it can offer the means to fight corruption. So all the money that the EU can offer as regional development to Ukraine, should it join the EU (the deal that yanukovich rejected 3 months ago was for a trade agreement, not to join the EU), will go to actual ukrainians and regional development, not in the back pockets of the corrupt.