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Thread: Ukraine in Flames

  1. #41
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    Re: Ukraine in Flames

    I must be a little slow on the uptake, as I don't view this as a protest for democracy. Yanukovich is elected democratically in the Ukraine. He wants to strike a business deal with Russia and favorable to the Ukraine because 2/3rds of the Ukraine speaks Russian and it has been historically attached to Russia. There are a bunch of EURO wannabes in the NW Ukraine who, with the help of $5 billion from the USA want to appoint their own leadership undemocratically through violence. Should they deal with Russia or fiat currency Reserve Bankers. Here in the USA, we recently gave the bankers trillions of dollars to help us out of a recession/depression and now the banks have lots of money but we don't. Ukraine sounds like "fresh meat for banker," if you ask me, and I admit that I have not one good word for Wall Street and Federal Reserve bankers. We stirred up Iraq and who benefitted? We stirred up Syria and who benefitted? We stirred up Libya and who benefitted? We stirred up Haiti and who benefitted? Is there a common message here? Ponder the issues, don't be misled by a stage managed media. Russia offers Ukraine a $15 billion bailout and discount natural gas and the EURO offers what?

  2. #42
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    Re: Ukraine in Flames

    Freedom.

    This explains the rudiments.

    BBC News - Ukraine crisis explained - in 60 seconds
    Don't work out, work in.

    Never eat anything that's served in a bucket.

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    Re: Ukraine in Flames

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    Freedom.

    This explains the rudiments.

    BBC News - Ukraine crisis explained - in 60 seconds
    Are some really holding it against Ukrainians for not wanting to be associated with Russia? I mean the shadow of Russia alone makes my skin crawl. Not to mention recent events. First the initial refusal of homosexuals, then their public beating of the band "pussy riot" only shows they aren't heading in the right direction.

    Video: Pussy Riot attacked with whips by police at Sochi - Telegraph

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    Re: Ukraine in Flames

    Quote Originally Posted by Proud South Korean View Post
    I'm not saying that it works all the time or that it will work in Ukraine. I just showed that your post using absolutes is just nonsense. Non-violent student activism worked in South Korea to bring about democracy also.
    Well, I didn't say democracy, I said freedom and liberty. Also, you have a fairly large standing army. A viscous enemy to your north. Many, many people died to keep S. Korea independent and many stand ready to do so today to ensure it.

    Nor do you truly have freedom and liberty. No country does at the moment. There are many, many things restricted in your country. You have socialist entities and organizations within your government. As long as a single socialist part to your government exist or a single socialist lives in your country, you will never be truly free. Freedom and socialism are incompatible with each other. The mix as well as matter and anti-matter.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: Ukraine in Flames

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Well, I didn't say democracy, I said freedom and liberty. Also, you have a fairly large standing army. A viscous enemy to your north. Many, many people died to keep S. Korea independent and many stand ready to do so today to ensure it.

    Nor do you truly have freedom and liberty. No country does at the moment. There are many, many things restricted in your country. You have socialist entities and organizations within your government. As long as a single socialist part to your government exist or a single socialist lives in your country, you will never be truly free. Freedom and socialism are incompatible with each other. The mix as well as matter and anti-matter.
    You may take your rant about socialism elsewhere.
    You also didn't get the comment about democracy. No, SK was ruled by a succession of almost fascist dictators well until the late 1980s. I wasn't referring to our less fortunate brethren in the North.
    "The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all" - Joan Robinson
    "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill

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    Re: Ukraine in Flames

    Quote Originally Posted by Proud South Korean View Post
    You may take your rant about socialism elsewhere.
    You also didn't get the comment about democracy. No, SK was ruled by a succession of almost fascist dictators well until the late 1980s. I wasn't referring to our less fortunate brethren in the North.
    I got your comment. I am not a advocate of unrestricted democracy. Our country is in deep debt and our economy is near a shambles because of the affects people voting themselves entitlements due to unrestricted representative democracy.

    And I will put my rants about socialism any damned place I please if it is appropriate to the thread.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: Ukraine in Flames

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    I got your comment. I am not a advocate of unrestricted democracy. Our country is in deep debt and our economy is near a shambles because of the affects people voting themselves entitlements due to unrestricted representative democracy.

    And I will put my rants about socialism any damned place I please if it is appropriate to the thread.
    Do as you please
    "The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all" - Joan Robinson
    "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill

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    Re: Ukraine in Flames

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Wow really flexing your knowledge on this subject aren't you now?

    No they can't "just be a soverign country" as in ignore all their neighbors, and even if they could the current President doesn't want to do that and most of the protesters don't either.
    If you think Putin or the EU have the Ukrainians' interests at heart, you belie your name.

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    Re: Ukraine in Flames

    Quote Originally Posted by StringBean View Post
    If you think Putin or the EU have the Ukrainians' interests at heart, you belie your name.
    He's obviously not arguing that Putin or the EU have the Ukrainians' interests at heart, he's pointing out the obvious fact that between the EU and Russia, Ukraina hardly has no choice or alternative. It can ignore both at its own expense.
    "The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all" - Joan Robinson
    "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill

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    Re: Ukraine in Flames

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    I must be a little slow on the uptake, as I don't view this as a protest for democracy. Yanukovich is elected democratically in the Ukraine. He wants to strike a business deal with Russia and favorable to the Ukraine because 2/3rds of the Ukraine speaks Russian and it has been historically attached to Russia. There are a bunch of EURO wannabes in the NW Ukraine who, with the help of $5 billion from the USA want to appoint their own leadership undemocratically through violence. Should they deal with Russia or fiat currency Reserve Bankers. Here in the USA, we recently gave the bankers trillions of dollars to help us out of a recession/depression and now the banks have lots of money but we don't. Ukraine sounds like "fresh meat for banker," if you ask me, and I admit that I have not one good word for Wall Street and Federal Reserve bankers. We stirred up Iraq and who benefitted? We stirred up Syria and who benefitted? We stirred up Libya and who benefitted? We stirred up Haiti and who benefitted? Is there a common message here? Ponder the issues, don't be misled by a stage managed media. Russia offers Ukraine a $15 billion bailout and discount natural gas and the EURO offers what?
    You are projecting so hard it would be a shame if you missed your career as a powerpoint presenter.

    First off, yanukovich got elected with less than 50%. I think it was like 47% if I remember correctly, may have been 48. I know Timoshenko got like 45%. But still, not 50% + 1. Also, corruption allegations were widespread and people had no confidence that the vote would be fair.
    Nvm, found the wiki page so we can discuss on this basis.
    Ukrainian presidential election, 2010 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Even before the election ,over 80% of the country believed that there will be election rigging and only 5% believed that the elections would be fair and balanced.

    If you consider this to be "democracy" then fine... I don't.

    Russia offers Ukraine a 15bil loan to chain it to it. Most of that money will be entering the pockets of the politicians, nothing of value will go to helping the country or the people. Yanukovich is a multi-millionaire, he has about 100mil $ in houses alone.
    the EU can offer regional development funds. These funds cannot be pocketed by politicians or corrupt officials to the same level that, say, discretionary spending or contract funds are being pocketed by politicians and the political clientele. It can offer stability and it can offer the means to fight corruption. So all the money that the EU can offer as regional development to Ukraine, should it join the EU (the deal that yanukovich rejected 3 months ago was for a trade agreement, not to join the EU), will go to actual ukrainians and regional development, not in the back pockets of the corrupt.

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