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Thread: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Yes, it is a force and that force applies to globalization just as much at it does to you selling an item to your neighbor.
    What kind of force is it? Is it electromagnetic or kinetic?

    Labor is an item that is bought and sold the same way you would buy a TV.
    See you've confused yourself or you're just trying to weasel out of your mistake. You said that "price fixing is always bad". When people say that, they are not talking about labor, they are talking about prices of goods. So when you say "price fixing is always bad", in regards to minimum wage, what you are saying is either ignorant or deceptive, as that is not what that statement applies to.

    Very well...your choice. It's a shame you haven't been able to successfully dispute anything I've said and that you are reduced to just calling me silly.
    I've provided links and arguments backed up by research. You've made claims that are completely at odds with economic theory as if you don't actually know anything about it at all.

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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    The CBO said that as many as a MILLION workers could lose their jobs if the minimum wage was raised to $10.10.

    That would raise the present 6.6% unemployment rate to 7.2%.

    That is a good thing to you...yes or no, please?



    http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...inimumWage.pdf

    Employment Situation Summary Table A. Household data, seasonally adjusted
    Yes and I've provided research that says the impact would likely cost little or no jobs, and give a modest stimulus to the economy. Is it not ok to present a different view on this matter?

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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    "Prove"? You can look at research that supports similar positions. I don't remember reading something that says exactly that with concrete evidence, that is kind of a bizarre request, it is my opinion from my summary of where the U.S. is heading.

    There is no reason I can think of where employers are going to start fighting over a glut of unskilled workers by increasing their pay. Do you disagree?
    Employers (the buyers of labor) are only one side of the free market equation. Workers (the sellers of labor) are the other side.

    Of course, employers are not going to start fighting over a glut of unskilled workers by increasing their pay. That is an elementary concept in economics. The worker, however, can upgrade their skill set to make themselves more attractive to employers who might then offer to hire them at an increased wage. THAT... is the free market in action.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    "Prove"? You can look at research that supports similar positions. I don't remember reading something that says exactly that with concrete evidence, that is kind of a bizarre request, it is my opinion from my summary of where the U.S. is heading.

    There is no reason I can think of where employers are going to start fighting over a glut of unskilled workers by increasing their pay. Do you disagree?
    So, you have no links to proof...it's (as of now) just your opinion...noted.


    To answer your question; employers will hire people with adequate qualifications to fill job openings.

    Since I cannot know what the future holds for the U.S. economy, then I cannot know if/when employers might 'start fighting over a glut of unskilled workers by increasing their pay'.

    But since the CBO estimates that raising the minimum wage to $10.10/hour could cost as many as 1 million jobs; I would say that is not going to help the situation...quite the opposite actually.

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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    What kind of force is it? Is it electromagnetic or kinetic?
    It is the force of people making choices and agreements.

    See you've confused yourself or you're just trying to weasel out of your mistake. You said that "price fixing is always bad". When people say that, they are not talking about labor, they are talking about prices of goods. So when you say "price fixing is always bad", in regards to minimum wage, what you are saying is either ignorant or deceptive, as that is not what that statement applies to.
    Labor is bought and sold just like any other good and the same market forces apply to it...just like any other good. Whether the government is fixing the price of oil, housing, medical insurance...or labor...that is known as "price fixing" and price fixing ALWAYS has undesirable or unintended consequences.

    I've provided links and arguments backed up by research. You've made claims that are completely at odds with economic theory as if you don't actually know anything about it at all.
    I haven't seen an argument from you...backed up by anything...to show that labor is not affected by the free market. I haven't seen an argument from you...backed up by anything...to show that government price fixing is a good thing. All you've given are statements (your opinion, I presume) with nothing to substantiate them.

    So it goes...
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    Yes and I've provided research that says the impact would likely cost little or no jobs, and give a modest stimulus to the economy. Is it not ok to present a different view on this matter?
    Sure, it's okay.

    However, your post #36 refers to two sources that worked for me.

    The first was a letter signed by hundreds of economists (many well known neo-Keynesians).

    Considering most economists COMPLETELY missed the dot.com crash AND the massive housing crash...what these people think means almost nothing to me.



    The second was from the 'Economic Policy Institute' study.

    However, they are not, apparently, as unbiased as they claim:

    'It's also important to note what sort of organization the innocuously named Economic Policy Institute is. By just taking a look at the EPI board of directors, we find that 10 of the board members are heads or former heads of national unions, including Richard Trumka (AFL-CIO), Randi Weingarten (American Federation of Teachers), Andy Stern and Anna Burger (SEIU), Ron Gettelfinger (United Auto Workers), and Leo Gerard (United Steelworkers of America). Consider also that one of the institute's former senior economists, Jared Bernstein, is now the chief economist and economic policy advisor to Vice President Joe Biden.'

    Just a Reminder: The Economic Policy Institute is Dominated by Labor Interests | The Weekly Standard


    The CBO, on the other hand, is an unbiased source (something the others are not).

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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Employers (the buyers of labor) are only one side of the free market equation. Workers (the sellers of labor) are the other side.

    Of course, employers are not going to start fighting over a glut of unskilled workers by increasing their pay. That is an elementary concept in economics. The worker, however, can upgrade their skill set to make themselves more attractive to employers who might then offer to hire them at an increased wage. THAT... is the free market in action.
    We're moving more and more towards a service oriented economy. Only a small fraction of unskilled people can upgrade their skills and get a better job. What about the other 90% that are needed to fill the standard unskilled service jobs? What future do they have in America?

    So this is my point, how is the "free market" going to give these people a future? The answer is, its not.

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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Sure, it's okay.

    However, your post #36 refers to two sources that worked for me.

    The first was a letter signed by hundreds of economists (many well known neo-Keynesians).

    Considering most economists COMPLETELY missed the dot.com crash AND the massive housing crash...what these people think means almost nothing to me.



    The second was from the 'Economic Policy Institute' study.

    However, they are not, apparently, as unbiased as they claim:

    'It's also important to note what sort of organization the innocuously named Economic Policy Institute is. By just taking a look at the EPI board of directors, we find that 10 of the board members are heads or former heads of national unions, including Richard Trumka (AFL-CIO), Randi Weingarten (American Federation of Teachers), Andy Stern and Anna Burger (SEIU), Ron Gettelfinger (United Auto Workers), and Leo Gerard (United Steelworkers of America). Consider also that one of the institute's former senior economists, Jared Bernstein, is now the chief economist and economic policy advisor to Vice President Joe Biden.'

    Just a Reminder: The Economic Policy Institute is Dominated by Labor Interests | The Weekly Standard


    The CBO, on the other hand, is an unbiased source (something the others are not).
    The CBO also put out a report about how the stimulus largely worked which supports the Keynesians over the others, which means we should just dismiss all of them as well? These sweeping generalizations saying entire sectors of economists cannot be trusted is pretty hasty. They get some stuff right, some wrong, the best ones learn and get better, the worst ones continue with the same thinking they learned in college and will take to the grave.

    The CBO is not infallable itself either...

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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    So, you have no links to proof...it's (as of now) just your opinion...noted.


    To answer your question; employers will hire people with adequate qualifications to fill job openings.

    Since I cannot know what the future holds for the U.S. economy, then I cannot know if/when employers might 'start fighting over a glut of unskilled workers by increasing their pay'.

    But since the CBO estimates that raising the minimum wage to $10.10/hour could cost as many as 1 million jobs; I would say that is not going to help the situation...quite the opposite actually.
    LoL... so I have no "proof" and this just my opinion... you don't have any proof because you don't know what the future holds... your research is correct... and the research I quoted is wrong... gotcha.

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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    It is the force of people making choices and agreements.



    Labor is bought and sold just like any other good and the same market forces apply to it...just like any other good. Whether the government is fixing the price of oil, housing, medical insurance...or labor...that is known as "price fixing" and price fixing ALWAYS has undesirable or unintended consequences.



    I haven't seen an argument from you...backed up by anything...to show that labor is not affected by the free market. I haven't seen an argument from you...backed up by anything...to show that government price fixing is a good thing. All you've given are statements (your opinion, I presume) with nothing to substantiate them.

    So it goes...
    You've completely missed the ball here. By your definition of price fixing, that would mean the government is price fixing damn near everything. Not only that but you double down and again say it ALWAYS has undesirable consequences when you're referring to basically everything... I'm really going to have to ignore you now as you've just completely gone off the rails.

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