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CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

That's your proof of your statement:

''The "free market" is not going to raise wages for low skilled workers any time soon if in our lifetimes.'?

Noted.

Do you know what the market is? I posted a graph showing how the market is completely dominated by service sector jobs. Would you like to dispute that service sector jobs are generally low paying and low skilled? Would you like to dispute that future jobs in the U.S. are likely to be dominated by service jobs?

You're not delivering any argument whatsoever... you're just standing back and claiming I've got nothin'.
 

That's more like it...I give you credit for posting so many links...kudos.


However, I should tell you, they mean little to me...though I promise I will endeavor to take a boo at them.

There is no way that I could possibly imagine that you could convince me that raising the minimum wage is good for America.

It just goes against fundamental free market principles and - imo - macroeconomic common sense.

Paying people 39% more money (which this increase would be) by government order for a zero increase in productivity is no way to help an economy, imo.

As for unskilled workers that get left behind...tough.

They have plenty of welfare available - so their survival is not in danger - so I have near-zero pity.

And if they want more in life, they better find a desirable skill and learn it.

Oh, and if you want more jobs for Americans? Just tell the Fed to end their QE's, let rates rise on their own PLUS tell the government to balance the budget AND start calculating the CPI as a straight up inflation mark..and not a cost-of-living one (which it is).

The jobs will (after an initial rough patch ) grow substantially compared with today, I believe.


Now there is clearly no point in trying to convince you as your mind seems made up.

And you are not going to change my mind (imo).

So further discussion on this is pointless.

I just wanted to see if this study you linked to had any data attached to back it up.
 
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Do you know what the market is? I posted a graph showing how the market is completely dominated by service sector jobs. Would you like to dispute that service sector jobs are generally low paying and low skilled? Would you like to dispute that future jobs in the U.S. are likely to be dominated by service jobs?

You're not delivering any argument whatsoever... you're just standing back and claiming I've got nothin'.

You are missing the (imo) obvious...your statement ('The "free market" is not going to raise wages for low skilled workers any time soon if in our lifetimes.') is IMPOSSIBLE to prove.

You cannot know what the future holds...it is beyond ANYONE's ability.

So for you to say that you know what the future holds under certain circumstances is totally erroneous.

You can hope, believe or be convinced..but you cannot know.
 
That's more like it...I give you credit for posting so many links...kudos.


However, I should tell you, they mean little to me...though I promise I will endeavor to take a boo at them.

There is no way that I could possibly imagine that you could convince me that raising the minimum wage is good for America.

It just goes against fundamental free market principles and - imo - macroeconomic common sense.

Paying people 39% more money (which this increase would be) by government order for a zero increase in productivity is no way to help an economy, imo.

As for unskilled workers that get left behind...tough.

They have plenty of welfare available - so their survival is not in danger - so I have near-zero pity.

And if they want more in life, they better find a desirable skill and learn it.


Now there is clearly no point in trying to convince you as your mind seems made up.

And you are not going to change my mind (imo).

So further discussion on this is pointless.

I just wanted to see if this study you linked to had any data attached to back it up.

They mean little to you because you think you know better than any of them? Do you have any education or work experience in economics? You really think Nobel prize winning economists opinions and research are not as good as yours?

Your solution for America is "tough"?

You think Americans on welfare as no other means are available is ok?

I've already made the argument that unskilled workers cannot all better themselves because almost all the jobs are unskilled service sector based... you really don't understand any of this do you?

My mind is never made up, I learn and adapt as time goes on. If strong evidence points to all this being wrong I will change my position.

You've really showed your hand and it is empty. Things you think in your head on a whim have little to do with reality. Leave economics up to the experts or at least follow expert opinion and research.
 
You are missing the (imo) obvious...your statement ('The "free market" is not going to raise wages for low skilled workers any time soon if in our lifetimes.') is IMPOSSIBLE to prove.

You cannot know what the future holds...it is beyond ANYONE's ability.

So for you to say that you know what the future holds under certain circumstances is totally erroneous.

You can hope, believe or be convinced..but you cannot know.

Now you're playing semantics and attacking the fact that I do not have a crystal ball. What I said was a projection of my opinion of where I thought the U.S. was headed. You do realize all research and thoughts on the future are projections, right? If you would like we could discuss that projection but instead you decided to just run off.

Looks like you're the one who has nothin'.
 
They mean little to you because you think you know better than any of them? Do you have any education or work experience in economics? You really think Nobel prize winning economists opinions and research are not as good as yours?

Your solution for America is "tough"?

You think Americans on welfare as no other means are available is ok?

I've already made the argument that unskilled workers cannot all better themselves because almost all the jobs are unskilled service sector based... you really don't understand any of this do you?

My mind is never made up, I learn and adapt as time goes on. If strong evidence points to all this being wrong I will change my position.

You've really showed your hand and it is empty. Things you think in your head on a whim have little to do with reality. Leave economics up to the experts or at least follow expert opinion and research.

There you go again...assuming.

I make a statement - and you start reading between the lines and filling in what you want...instead of just taking the actual words I use and nothing else.

In other words, you are - imo - in essence, putting words in my mouth...and I will not debate with people who do that.

Either debate the EXACT words I use and NONE other or I cannot be bothered.


I am not wasting any further time with you on this.

I have said what I think are some of the solutions for American workers as opposed to forcing the minimum wage up by 39%.

You don't agree...so be it.


We are done here for now.
 
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Now you're playing semantics and attacking the fact that I do not have a crystal ball. What I said was a projection of my opinion of where I thought the U.S. was headed. You do realize all research and thoughts on the future are projections, right? If you would like we could discuss that projection but instead you decided to just run off.

Looks like you're the one who has nothin'.

Call it what you like...I like exactitude.

I don't always follow it, but I try.

If you are going to make matter-of-fact statements without any concern for their accuracy, please don't go whining when someone points it out to you.

Spend a few more seconds to make the statement accurate and no one will call you on it.

A simple 'I believe' instead of 'it is' is a good place to start.

And if you had not been - imo - rather rude to people (who seemed to have been civil to you initially); I would not have bothered. But you were (imo), so I did.


Good day.
 
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Generally people get raises every year. Higher level positions pay slightly more, like from cart pusher to working the service desk. We're talking from 7.25 to 8, to 9, to 10 if you've been there for years and have moved up slightly two levels... These are not big numbers and can barely be called more.

Barely be called more? What does that mean? Are they more or not? The starting wage at both Walmart and Target is more than minimum wage.
 
Barely be called more? What does that mean? Are they more or not? The starting wage at both Walmart and Target is more than minimum wage.

Mornin' Buck. :2wave: This morning over 3 MS Media News Stations......all said the same thing about how Economists cannot agree on this issue. So all those stats really aren't saying much.

Once again they talk about raising the wage....would only benefit those on the lower end spectrum of the middle class and the lesser of those who are Poor. Like borderline.

The real poor would suffer over the rise in prices of things they need on a daily basis.

This is not some science that any economists can emphatically stand together in consensus.

Course with Obamcare costing jobs and now this.....it sure isn't helping his argument about getting rid of poverty either.
 
They are a role model for competitors and a fine example of what would put the U.S. back on track to a winning economy. Their workers buy homes and spend additional money in the local economy strengthening it.

:shrug: good - I hope their model continues to be successful. However, the "buy large bulk quantities with as minimal shelving costs as possible in a warehouse" model isn't a "fine example" of what all other businesses should do. Costco can afford to do what it does because of how it runs - hire fewer workers per square foot of sales space, minimize the cost of the space, and lock people in with memberships. Costco also hires (uh-oh) better workers than Wal-Mart does. Because they hire fewer, and pay more, they are pickier. A kid coming off the street who either isn't finished with High School or who didn't finish High School and has little social capital backing him in the form of all those Soft Assets that make us better workers is more likely to actually get a job at Wal-Mart than he is at Costco.

So, if your "role model for the economy" is "keep our poor trapped in poverty through joblessness", then hey, I agree, raising the minimum wage is a fine idea.


Wal-Mart's exploitation every where it goes is the perfect example of conservative economics at work.

:lol: and Costco's isn't? There is no moral difference between the two companies, both are simply putting into place successful but different provision models. With, I think, two notable exceptions - 1. Wal-Mart get's where it does by providing a good/service at a price people want, Costco appears to want to increase it's market share by using government force to tilt the scales in its favor and 2. We currently have at or almost at double-digit unemployment for recent veterans, who often lack easily definable civilian job skill sets (your average restaurant or bank does not need many people who know how to repair machine guns) but who do often come with health issues. Wal-Mart has pledged to hire any unemployed veteran who has served in the wars and who walks through their doors looking for a job. GaThomas (a poster here) is in that boat, and is right now applying through their managerial program. I realize that's a small thing, but I find it worth noting.



Is Goldman Sachs more moral than Costco because it pays its' employees more?
 
Or cut into profits, but that would be stealing, right?

Every time someone tosses out that short-sighted and foolish assumption (oh! Profits are Endless! We can do whatever we like to business and they will just cut into magical, wonderful, always-existent Profits!) I want to track them down in RL and force them to read the story of the Goose that Laid the Golden Egg a hundred times in a row.

Many of our bigger employers run on business models that reduce profit margins in order to lower prices in order to sell more and make back the difference on bulk. The margins are already thin enough that increases in the cost of individual unit of labor require cuts to that total cost.

Everyone has bent over backwards to make our economy work except for those with the most.

BS. "Everyone has bent over backwards to make our economy work"? We have record numbers of people enjoying the Social Safety Hammock - Record numbers of people collecting SNAP, TANF, SSDI, you name it. The people that are paying for all that are the ones with the most.

They've decided they always need more no matter what and its breaking the country.

Not only class warfare claptrap, but hilariously mathematically incompetent. What is breaking our nations' finances are our entitlements.
 
You've completely missed the ball here. By your definition of price fixing, that would mean the government is price fixing damn near everything. Not only that but you double down and again say it ALWAYS has undesirable consequences when you're referring to basically everything... I'm really going to have to ignore you now as you've just completely gone off the rails.

Well, the federal government doesn't price fix much, though they do have a very large effect on heath care prices because they spend so much on it...at prices they set. But that's not the same thing as telling everyone...all buyers and all sellers...that they are not allowed to go above or below some level that the government dreams up. But, yeah...government price fixing really is a bad thing.
 

Cool...I'm glad to see you finally post some links instead of just stating your opinion, but that's only part of debating. Now, you have to put this mass of information into context. Quote specific portions of this data and show how it supports your position.

Look...if we were talking about new taxes resulting from Obamacare, I could say that there are X number of new taxes put into effect by that law and to support my argument, post a link to the thousands of pages of text in the law. But that would be meaningless. To prove my point, I would need to quote specific portions of the law that applies to my argument.

You need to do the same here. These links you've posted are meaningless.
 
We're moving more and more towards a service oriented economy. Only a small fraction of unskilled people can upgrade their skills and get a better job. What about the other 90% that are needed to fill the standard unskilled service jobs? What future do they have in America?

So this is my point, how is the "free market" going to give these people a future? The answer is, its not.

Why do you say that service jobs are "unskilled"? I once held down a service job...servicing fire safety equipment. Believe me, in order to do my job effectively, I had to have a certain amount of knowledge about plumbing, pressure, mechanics, interpreting and applying federal, state and local laws. I had to be able to read diagrams and blueprints. I had to be able to operate machinery...some of it computer controlled, some of it manually operated. Plus, I had to understand and use customer service concepts and practices. I was quite "skilled" in that job and I earned much more than minimum wage doing it. When I applied for the work, I beat out 5 other people applying for the same job.

That was the "free market" at work that gave me that job.
 
There you go again...assuming.

I make a statement - and you start reading between the lines and filling in what you want...instead of just taking the actual words I use and nothing else.

In other words, you are - imo - in essence, putting words in my mouth...and I will not debate with people who do that.

Either debate the EXACT words I use and NONE other or I cannot be bothered.


I am not wasting any further time with you on this.

I have said what I think are some of the solutions for American workers as opposed to forcing the minimum wage up by 39%.

You don't agree...so be it.


We are done here for now.

I'm taking what you say and putting it into context. If you say "welfare is available so Americans will be fine", that's pretty much an endorsement of just having people on welfare with no other choice since you're not arguing the other points.

You haven't made a single argument in this thread. All you've done is complain about silly things like semantics or my perceived tone.
 
Call it what you like...I like exactitude.

I don't always follow it, but I try.

If you are going to make matter-of-fact statements without any concern for their accuracy, please don't go whining when someone points it out to you.

Spend a few more seconds to make the statement accurate and no one will call you on it.

A simple 'I believe' instead of 'it is' is a good place to start.

And if you had not been - imo - rather rude to people (who seemed to have been civil to you initially); I would not have bothered. But you were (imo), so I did.


Good day.

You have no argument so you're clinging to semantics, very weak.
 
Barely be called more? What does that mean? Are they more or not? The starting wage at both Walmart and Target is more than minimum wage.

I said that the market is not going to give service workers a raise and you asked how is it that people make more than minimum wage, so I told you. The point is it is barely above minimum wage and is not much to look forward to. If you think that is proof of the market taking care of the workers I'd say you are wrong.
 
Please post the source of this graphic, along with their definition of "Services".

I'm not going to research common knowledge for you. Type into google "U.S. employment by sector" and take a look around. Take a look at what kind of jobs make up the service sector. Look at how much those jobs typically pay.
 
:shrug: good - I hope their model continues to be successful. However, the "buy large bulk quantities with as minimal shelving costs as possible in a warehouse" model isn't a "fine example" of what all other businesses should do. Costco can afford to do what it does because of how it runs - hire fewer workers per square foot of sales space, minimize the cost of the space, and lock people in with memberships. Costco also hires (uh-oh) better workers than Wal-Mart does. Because they hire fewer, and pay more, they are pickier. A kid coming off the street who either isn't finished with High School or who didn't finish High School and has little social capital backing him in the form of all those Soft Assets that make us better workers is more likely to actually get a job at Wal-Mart than he is at Costco.

So, if your "role model for the economy" is "keep our poor trapped in poverty through joblessness", then hey, I agree, raising the minimum wage is a fine idea.




:lol: and Costco's isn't? There is no moral difference between the two companies, both are simply putting into place successful but different provision models. With, I think, two notable exceptions - 1. Wal-Mart get's where it does by providing a good/service at a price people want, Costco appears to want to increase it's market share by using government force to tilt the scales in its favor and 2. We currently have at or almost at double-digit unemployment for recent veterans, who often lack easily definable civilian job skill sets (your average restaurant or bank does not need many people who know how to repair machine guns) but who do often come with health issues. Wal-Mart has pledged to hire any unemployed veteran who has served in the wars and who walks through their doors looking for a job. GaThomas (a poster here) is in that boat, and is right now applying through their managerial program. I realize that's a small thing, but I find it worth noting.



Is Goldman Sachs more moral than Costco because it pays its' employees more?

It is debatable whether or not increasing minimum wage would negatively effect jobs and it would stimulate the economy so I'd call that a wash.

You completely ignored the point I was making with how Wal-Mart operates and what the end result of that kind of operation is. Yes it creates a lot of low-wage poverty jobs for the vast majority and funnels all profits to the top, just like conservative economics does. Do you disagree? Do you think this is a good thing?

If you compare profits between Costco and Wal-Mart you will see the difference lies completely in how much more Costco pays it's workers. Wal-Mart's median wage is like $10 an hour, Costco's is $17. You really think $10 an hour at best is something to look forward to? Is this really what America has become? You want veterans with health problems making 10 bucks an hour or worse? They'll be just another welfare case.

If Wal-Mart is your model for success then you had better get used to increasing welfare because it is the only way the average American can survive working there.
 
Every time someone tosses out that short-sighted and foolish assumption (oh! Profits are Endless! We can do whatever we like to business and they will just cut into magical, wonderful, always-existent Profits!) I want to track them down in RL and force them to read the story of the Goose that Laid the Golden Egg a hundred times in a row.

Many of our bigger employers run on business models that reduce profit margins in order to lower prices in order to sell more and make back the difference on bulk. The margins are already thin enough that increases in the cost of individual unit of labor require cuts to that total cost.



BS. "Everyone has bent over backwards to make our economy work"? We have record numbers of people enjoying the Social Safety Hammock - Record numbers of people collecting SNAP, TANF, SSDI, you name it. The people that are paying for all that are the ones with the most.



Not only class warfare claptrap, but hilariously mathematically incompetent. What is breaking our nations' finances are our entitlements.

This is standard nonsense the greedy trot out when their rigged game is explored. You think all profit belongs to the rich and if anyone gets a little more it will be the end of the economy and socialism will take over. :roll: I've seen this bs my whole life, its petty bully tactics to convince people they'd better take that small paycheck and shutup.

Then you complain about welfare, most welfare recipients work ya know.

You can't have it both ways... you can't pay poverty wages then complain about those same people drawing welfare because their job doesn't pay enough.

Yes you're right, entitlements are breaking the country. Corporate welfare, tax cuts for the rich, an effective tax rate of < 15% for billionaires, effective taxes of 25% or more on the working poor. We really need to clamp down on the freeloaders who milk the real workers for all they're worth.
 
Well, the federal government doesn't price fix much, though they do have a very large effect on heath care prices because they spend so much on it...at prices they set. But that's not the same thing as telling everyone...all buyers and all sellers...that they are not allowed to go above or below some level that the government dreams up. But, yeah...government price fixing really is a bad thing.

You've yet again changed your definition of price fixing and now you're talking about something completely different, again...
 
Actually the CBO report said that the job impact would fall in a range between 0 and 1 million.

The problem is that economic theory shows a higher minimum wage would lead to lower employment. The reality when actually studying the impact has been a very mixed bag with some cases showing job gains an most studies showing a negligible impact.
 
Cool...I'm glad to see you finally post some links instead of just stating your opinion, but that's only part of debating. Now, you have to put this mass of information into context. Quote specific portions of this data and show how it supports your position.

Look...if we were talking about new taxes resulting from Obamacare, I could say that there are X number of new taxes put into effect by that law and to support my argument, post a link to the thousands of pages of text in the law. But that would be meaningless. To prove my point, I would need to quote specific portions of the law that applies to my argument.

You need to do the same here. These links you've posted are meaningless.

LoL, are you coaching me on how to debate? Thanks.

You're basically copying DA60's style of "debate" by trying to test me with endless demands that I "do this" or "show this" to your satisfaction. This is a very old and shallow technique by people who don't have an actual argument and just want to taunt from the sidelines.

If you would like to make an actual argument instead of just complaining, go ahead. What's funny is that what I posted was for a demand from DA60 because he kept demanding links to research. Now you chime in and demand quotes and criticize it as not enough, lmao. Where is your argument? Where is your research? Where is your "proof" of anything?
 
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